Kate Kelly excommunicated, according to news reports

Here is one story reporting that Kate Kelly, founder of Ordain Women, has been excommunicated.

Her disciplinary hearing was held yesterday in Virginia.

More details as they become available (please feel free to use the comments to update this story with details).

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About Geoff B.

Geoff B graduated from Stanford University (class of 1985) and worked in journalism for several years until about 1992, when he took up his second career in telecommunications sales. He has held many callings in the Church, but his favorite calling is father and husband. Geoff is active in martial arts and loves hiking and skiing. Geoff has five children and lives in Colorado.

50 thoughts on “Kate Kelly excommunicated, according to news reports

  1. Here is the report from the Ordain Women website:


    “The verdict has been handed down in the disciplinary trial of Kate Kelly, one of the founders of the group Ordain Women. Today, Kelly’s former ecclesiastical leader in Virginia, Bishop Mark Harrison, contacted Kelly by email to inform her that the all-male panel of judges who tried her in absentia on Sunday, June 22nd, has convicted her on the charge of apostasy and has decided to excommunicate her, which is the most serious punishment that can be levied by a Church court. Bishop Harrison explained the consequences of excommunication and the conditions he has imposed upon Kelly, in order for her to be considered worthy of future re-baptism into the Church:
    ” . . . our determination is that you be excommunicated for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church. This means that you may not wear temple garments or contribute tithes and offerings. You may not take the sacrament, hold a Church calling, give a talk in Church, offer a public prayer in behalf of the class or congregation in a Church meeting, or vote in the sustaining of Church officers. These conditions almost always last at least one year. If you show true repentance and satisfy the conditions imposed below while you are no longer a member, you may be readmitted by baptism and confirmation.
    “In order to be considered for readmission to the Church, you will need to demonstrate over a period of time that you have stopped teachings and actions that undermine the Church, its leaders, and the doctrine of the priesthood. You must be truthful in your communications with others regarding matters that involve your priesthood leaders, including the administration of Church discipline, and you must stop trying to gain a following for yourself or your cause and taking actions that could lead others away from the Church.”
    Kelly says, “The decision to force me outside my congregation and community is exceptionally painful. Today is a tragic day for my family and me as we process the many ways this will impact us, both in this life and in the eternities. I love the gospel and the courage of its people. Don’t leave. Stay, and make things better.”
    Debra Jenson of Ordain Women said, “We are deeply saddened by this news. As Mormons we recognize the gravity of this action. We follow the directive of Mosiah 18:9 and will mourn with our sister as she mourns. We regret that there is no way to predict how local leaders will react to conversations about gender inequality in the Church—-many have been supportive in these discussions, others have not. Ordain Women will continue.”

  2. This point needs to be repeated: the Church does not comment on disciplinary actions, which are private. This news was released by Kate Kelly, not the Church.

  3. A necessary but sad event. Hopefully this event wont push to many to resign from the church or rebel even further, but it probably will.

  4. Kate Kelly has encouraged her followers to stay in the Church. Today, she said, “Stay, and make things better.” Last week in the FMH podcast, she said “Stay and raise hell.”

  5. I just want to point out that the ABC article says that the Church’s name is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints.” Yep. Ladder. That’s sloppy reporting for you. Also they forgot the hyphen.

    Pfft. Gentiles.

  6. Beth, LOL. It will be interesting to see how long it takes the ABC editors to fix that (if they even do).

    I remember when Newsweek was still a big deal and they had a picture of Joseph F. Smith with his long beard with the caption: “Joseph Smith, the first Mormon prophet.” Pfft. Gentiles.

  7. Michael Davidson on June 23, 2014 at 2:36 pm said:
    Kate Kelly has encouraged her followers to stay in the Church. Today, she said, “Stay, and make things better.” Last week in the FMH podcast, she said “Stay and raise hell.”

    If I understand her correctly, in her view, these are one in the same.

  8. Glad to have an end to sad business. I am not pleased to see anyone leave the Church, but understand why it is sometimes necessary to force a parting of the ways. Kelly no longer has claim to legitimacy as a Church member, unless she agrees to reconcile and have her membership reinstated. How many times has this play been reinacted since the Church was resored. A cautionary tale to anyone who thinks the righteousness of their own causes supercedes direction of Church leadership.

  9. It would be great if this was the last we heard about this group or their cause, but pretty sure it’s just the beginning. Boo.

  10. It was illuminating seeing the official letter. Kate and those who are hurting for her will be in my prayers.

    In the meantime, I look forward to see the great and wonderful changes I anticipate the Church will be making as the faithful increase in their knowledge of how priesthood power is exercised by all who are called to serve in the Church. It’s an exciting time to be in the Church.

  11. This affair may also inspire admiration among traditionally minded members of other churches who are saddened by the march of political correctness/leftism through their institutions.

    The Lord is wise, and I assume that that bishopric sought and implemented the Lord’s will.

    It may be that this action, and all the “free advertising” that it has generated, will eventually bring in more converts from other churches.

    one thing for sure, the church is even more “coming out of obscurity.”

  12. Way to keep it positive, Meg.

    For me there is another positive, though it may be a weird one. Hear me out. 🙂

    I am relieved that the Lord is consistent. Kate’s behavior was similar to examples of apostasy in the Book of Mormon. Their behavior was not permitted, and neither was hers. I work in special education, and my reaction reminds me of the way we try to explain boundaries to families. A child’s behavior often improves when boundaries are established and parents are consistent. We are all children, and we generally like to know where our boundaries are. I certainly do.

    Today we all learned something about the Lord’s boundaries and His consistency. Popular opinion and social/political pressure do not have an impact on His rules, laws, judgments, etc. It is a good opportunity for us to examine ourselves and where we may be stepping over his boundaries, because we can be confident that He is perfectly, eternal consistent in His judgment.

    What a hard day. Although I completely disagree with Kate’s actions of apostasy, I am grieved for her and her followers.

  13. “Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn” Mosiah 18:8-10 Today I mourn with those who mourn.

  14. Feminists are advocating
    1. Gay marriage
    2. Praying to heavenly parents instead of heavenly Father. There is no female deity responsible for our salvation
    3. Kimberly on FMH openly advocates setting up your alter to worship the goddess. This is a big no-no
    4. Kate led an open rebellion to Temple Square thinking that there would be zero consequences and life just doesn’t work like that

  15. I do feel bad for KK, even though we saw this coming, but even so, just knowing she is excommunicated is a hard thing. I pray that she does as her bishop recommended and get re-baptized in the future.

  16. Boundaries and sureties. Some see them as unendurable restrictions, others view them as the Iron Rod. The choice will always be between the great and spacious building and the tree of life. I know I sound pontifical but in my aging years I find myself dealing for most of each day with two willful and precocious children. They have many ‘great ideas’ that risk their life and limbs and try my patience. They will not reach the age of accountability for years, and even then they will require care and supervision. I pray that by adulthood they will have learned to avoid strange and wandering paths.

  17. Sad as this is, it is an opportunity for all of us to learn. Kate said she couldn’t do different than she did and remain consistent with her beliefs. However, that is inconsistent with the many covenants she has made, and the dozens of times she has raised her hand to sustain the prophets, stake president and bishops she has had.
    This teaches us an important boundary, not just on the left, but from Denver Snuffer excommunication, we learn the same thing on the right. We can question many things, but in the end we must humbly submit ourselves to the Lord through his prophets. To do otherwise is to sneer at those who followed Joseph Smith from place to place, even as apostates sought his life. To do otherwise is to sneer at the covenants made with the Lord at baptism and in the temple.
    For me, to not keep those covenants would make me inconsistent. Clearly for Kate, the covenants she made were not as important to her as her political desires. She was not willing to consecrate herself to building up Zion, or to listen to a prophet’s voice.
    I hope that this becomes a warning voice to all members on all sides of the issue that we are to follow the living prophets. God called them in their imperfections, but he still called them and expects us to solidly sustain them.

    Maxine Hanks noted that her biggest error in her excommunication was not considering the Brethren to be on the same level as she was. In looking down at them, she lost her way. Thank God she has regained her footing and testimony, as we were the lesser without her in the Church. And we are now lesser because of Kate’s apostasy, though the steps taken were definitely necessary.

    Personally, I believe this time of hastening we are in is a sign of the last days. It is also a day when the “very elect” may be deceived. I think we’ve seen an instance of this, as Kate really was a good and faithful Latter-day Saint for many years, serving faithfully on a mission, etc. However, she has allowed her intellect and pride to outpace her testimony and devotion to her covenants. We are all at risk of this same chronic disease, if we do not check ourselves and keep ourselves humbly following the prophets of God.

  18. Meg,
    If you have to be told you have priesthood power, I’m not sure how positive things will necessarily turn out based on changes. I for one hope we don’t hear a lot of bluster about power and authority in the priesthood from those who want to lay claim to something they haven’t used their agency to receive.

    I’m not including you in this as by your writings and the writings and talks of many others (men and women) they’ve known and excercised the Lord’s power many times in the past.

    But tell someone they have God’s power and authority who then flips the TV channel to nonsense, obsesses over “fashion” and covering their face with a thick layer of paste, or thinks nothing deeper than sports and hunting or their favorite TV show… Well… Sorry for the downer, I have hope if we repent as a people that power will be distilled as the deal from heaven, but I see so much talk and head bobbing, but not enough adopting the mantleof Christ which is what real power and authority actually are.

  19. Oh and I wish Kate the best in Kenya. I feel as if she’s going to bless the lives of others through service then, in many ways she’s “better” than a lot of us (if a comparison is to be made), her clear faults with regard to the priesthood notwithstanding .

  20. Reading that letter the bishop says it’s not a problem (he used the word difficulty) to believe women should be ordained. You could in theory even respond to others with that belief if the topic comes up and be OK or at least without “difficulty” to use his word.

    That’s actually quite an olive branch at least for her supporters.

  21. Meg, I sincerely hope there is a future way to include women in the promises of section 121 and 84. I sincerely hope there is a way for women to experience the same powerful light that comes through baptizing, the clear revelation of conferring the Gift of the Holy Ghost or participating in the distilling spirit that often abides the tough moments for a judge in Israel. I’m also open to those opportunities coming in unexpected ways. Here’s to future understanding.

  22. The whole situation is very unfortunate. I think most members are embarrassed that the whole thing happened as such a public spectacle in the media like it did. I do hope the Lord touches her in a way that will help her find peace and forgiveness.

    It really was telling, though, how she made the decision not to attend, postpone, or respond to the disciplinary hearing (or to even video chat, as suggested by her bishop), but rather to hold a public vigil at the Church Office building in SLC with several of her followers. Rather than try to make the situation better, rather than speak for herself in defense of her own feelings and actions, rather than find compromise or commonality or counsel with her priesthood leaders, rather than try to do everything in her power to avoid church discipline or excommunication, she chose to hold a public meeting in a public place and make public statements to the media. That tells me that of all of her intentions, as good as she felt they may be, none of them included the possibility of repentance or change or even the hint that she might possibly be wrong.

    And that’s what is the saddest part of the whole situation. Sometimes we get things wrong. WE…. all of us. I just hope and pray that the Lord blesses me with enough humility to accept counsel when given and repent when necessary. Always remember that even though our leaders aren’t always perfect, neither are we.

  23. Christian J
    As a set apart temple worker for more than fifteen years I had the privilege of exercising priesthood power on behalf of my sisters. It was a joy to me, but I felt more when I acted as a Patron who received those blessings than I ever did as worker who exercised the priesthood. In my life as woman in the Church I feel much the same way. When I receive the sacrament, a blessing for health or hands laid on my head to be set apart I feel like a vessel being filled with power through the mediation of others. Having the power to fill or being filled are quite different experiences, but if I could only choose one it would be the latter. I know many women who feel the same. As I follow a couple from the celestial room, their hands linked, their matching white robes mingling as they indulge in a quick hug, the vision of eternity opens before me, a destination where our current controversies will seem very petty and misdirected.

  24. Thank you for posting the full letter from the Bishop. I saw this comment on one article and found it both insightful and interesting:

    “I am surprised to see so many people say that Kate Kelly hasn’t done anything to lead people away from the church, and then admit that they themselves are considering leaving the Church. This is all a result of her actions, and by saying that you are leaving, you are showing how correct the Church has been on their stance. I’m sorry to see so many of my brothers and sisters hurting for disobedience and hope they take the opportunity to see why having an OW profile is sowing the seeds of apostasy and they humble themselves and come back.”

    Having read this, I do wonder what the future holds for the current supporters of this group, now that the leader and founder has been excommunicated.Having an OW profile isn’t worth losing ones membership or good standing over. I am hopeful there are some who seek to be humble and turn from these ways but I see so much anger and hard heartedness that I wonder what the future holds for them and their membership. Thoughts?

  25. “… and we are now the lesser because of Kate’s apostasy, though the steps taken were definitely necessary”
    I couldn’t think of better words to sum up this whole experience. Amen

  26. Angela,

    Clearly for some having an OW profile is worth more than their membership. Kate Kelly’s parents have been disciplined for this if the news reports are to be believed. My expectation is that some profiles will come down, but not many. The strategy of OW of requiring their members to get out and personally get involved in actions takes this from just being a semi-anonymous online experience, and more of something that requires people to become personally invested.

  27. Meg, I’m not so sure this is an exciting time to be in the church. Seems like the last few years, the brethren (and thus the focus of the church in general) have been mostly reactive. It’s already been been decades since we’ve received any new doctrine (or noteworthy variation, or enlightenment on old doctrine). Now it seems like General Conference has become almost exclusively a means of reacting– from a defensive posture– some of our core doctrines. The SSM movement and groups like OW are winning because they’ve successfully shifted the focus of the church to their pet issues.

    Yeah, excited I’m not.

    This Kate Kelly deal isn’t newsworthy to me. She apostatized and was ex’d. Happens all the time. Lots of exmos play the martyr card. Why should we give a second thought to Ms. Kelly? What utterly baffles me is the attention this lady gets from church-owned media. The Deseret News and KSL are all over this! WHY?

    Somewhere I can hear my philandering, excommunicated uncle asking “Where’s my dang parade?!”

  28. Slight clarification to the above: It seems to me that the Brethren spend most conferences now reacting to attacks on some of our core doctrines. I just taught Elder Oaks’ April talk in EQ last Sunday. Awesome talk, but you can’t tell me that wasn’t a direct response to the OW movement.

    OW always complains about their issue not being addressed by the Brethren. Well, there you go. You might as well have sat down with Elder Oaks personally for lunch (which, come to think of it, I have– albeit as the result of several bizarre coincidences).

  29. Tossman, the Church is growing very well in Africa, Asia and Latin America, places where nobody has heard of this brouhaha and where people are feeling the Spirit and are excited to be part of these times. In my ward in Colorado, nobody really cares about all of the drama either. The majority of the members in my ward are converts and they spend their time on home teaching, going to the temple and other forms of service, as well as of course their jobs and their families. They really don’t have much time or patience for all of these attacks on the Church. Another interesting thing about studying Church history: it is the times of stress in the Church that bring about some of the most interesting periods of growth and expansion. During the Kirtland drama, Joseph Smith sent missionaries to England, and they baptized thousands who became the foundation of the Church in Nauvoo. People left the Church, apostasizing in horrible ways, and new people came in who were more committed to the Gospel. The Church always finds a way to confound its critics, who think they are on top while they go through their mini-martyrdoms but very quickly discover they were never in control. The critics eventually are abandoned by their fair-weather friends and end up alone, very alone. The same pattern happens over and over again in Church history and JD and KK will soon find that their rebellions did not work out as planned.

  30. Someone, somewhere wrote: “I am surprised to see so many people say that Kate Kelly hasn’t done anything to lead people away from the church, and then admit that they themselves are considering leaving the Church. This is all a result of her actions, and by saying that you are leaving, you are showing how correct the Church has been on their stance.”

    And/or, it could illustrate that the founders and early-joiners of the OW movement didn’t believe the foundational truth claims of the church to start with, and were weighing whether they should stay or leave before OW even started.

    Nadine Hansen, KK’s admitted -mentor-, has been totally inactive in the church for many years, and openly opposed the church on prop 8, publishing the names and addresses of donors so they could be physically attacked and harassed by ssm proponents.

    I think there are many who have been DUPED into thinking that KK got exed for merely “questioning”, and she has actively promoted that misrepresentation. I have to conclude that KK is either incredibly stupid or has intentionally lied about the events and her interactions with her leaders. In order to be the most charitable that I can think of, I would have to conclude that KK herself has been duped by political correctness, leftism, and progressivism, and that she is acting on the belief that her desired ends justify lying, manipulative and unrighteous means.

  31. “Clearly for some having an OW profile is worth more than their membership.”

    I think their objections run much deeper than this. The way they probably look at it boils down to their individual freedom and the way that only one of the two sides seems to constrain it. It’s not that they value one group more than the other, but that one group constrains their freedom in a way that the other does not. Thus, they probably see their own freedom as being more valuable than their membership to either one of these groups.

    Of particular interest to me, within the context of this blog, is that this argument is not a straightforwardly left-wing argument. This seems to be a case where the the two major factions on the right – conservatism and classical liberalism – come apart.

  32. jeff G, I think the root of KK’s and NH’s dissent from the church is based on their wholesale acceptance of and immersion into leftism/political correctness/progressivism. That movement, PC for short, is nihilistic, and destructive of all institutions that it marches through. That movement is constantly revolutionary, going from one identified or else manufactured crisis to another. KK’s dedication to her social justice career is further evidence.

    i think this essay by Professor Bruce Charlton explains how KK/JD/NH are connected to it all:

    I’ve thought that OW’s intention, from the beginning, was to destroy the church. if KK does not actually have that intent in mind, then she is a puppet of someone behind the scenes (perhaps NH?) Thinking that she is merely a deluded puppet of nefarious forces is the most charitable deduction I can think of at the moment.

    Analysis of left wing calls for egalitarianism are the subject of many of BC’s posts:







  33. Tossman, one of the themes I get from the scriptures is that we don’t get new additional light until we, collectively and indivually, do a good enough job of living up to the old light we alrewady have. If we don’t live up to the light we’ve been given, greater light just condemns us more according to the scripture “he who sins against the greater light is under the greater condemnation.”

    It was said somewhere that we wont get the 2/3rds sealed portion of the BoM until we live up to the 1/3rd portion we alreay have.

    So that’s what always comes to my mind when I hear people say we haven’t gotten any (major) revelation in a while.

    Actually, we do get a LOT of revelatory and prophetic revelation in Gen Conf, but the FP sugar coats it and makes it soft and sweet and we overlook it because we expect to hear them shout “thus sayeth the LORD!” when in fact they couch it with “I urge you…”

    People who listened to and obeyed Pres Hinckley werent hurt so bad by the 2008 financial crisis, because he “urged” people to a) not get a bigger house than they need and can afford, b) get out of debt, and c) get as much education as you can.

    I know guys in their 40’s who went back to school based on what pres Hinckley said, and they weathered the financial storm.

  34. Tossman,

    I would throw this suggestion out to you. Take three apostles — say, Elder Bednar, Elder Oaks, and President Eyring. (Leave out Pres. Monson for now.)

    Take their talks from the last five years’ worth of general conferences. That’s ten conferences, times three apostles….that’s a hefty collection of thirty conference addresses. In the case of Pres. Eyring, he speaks at least twice each conference, so you would have actually closer to thirty-five or more talks.

    Take those sermons and organize them by theme. Go over them carefully. If you do, you will see fascinating patterns of prophetic insight and inspiration. They are, in short, telling us exactly what we need to know and hear. But it’s interesting that you seem to be clamoring for something more, additional doctrine, etc.

    I’ll throw this out there: we don’t deserve additional doctrine. As is obvious from the blatantly heretical nature of the Bloggernacle. What we need is humility, repentance, and obedience to God’s commandments. But those items aren’t sexy or interesting. And so it goes.

    The Brethren fast and pray in the weeks leading to General Conference. So do the Seventy. As well as the Auxiliary leaders. They spent a great deal of time and energy into presenting what they feel the Lord would have them present to the Saints. In some cases, they completely toss out a talk because the Spirit urges them to go in another direction. It’s an intensive process that requires humility and submission.

    In response to your comment that the Brethren are “reactionary” in recent conferences….well, how else would the Lord react to a world that is careening towards destruction? We’ve abandoned every wholesome and righteous principle. Porn is everywhere. Corruption is rampant. Obama is happy to drone bomb weddings and nobody on the Left bats an eye (except Oliver Stone, to his credit). We are a wicked, sick society. And you fault the Brethren for “reactionary” sermons? I’m scratching my head over here. If reactionary rhetoric is what the Physician calls for, then that’s the prescription.

  35. Bookslinger, Michael Towns- I didn’t intend to come off as clamoring for more ane new revelation. I’m primarily lamenting the fact that it seems like groups like OW have somewhat derailed the progress the rest of us are trying to make.

    A wordwide church of 15+ million members and we’re spending conference explaining, once again, that God doesn’t change his rules just because really vocal fringe groups want Him to. I’m sure the SSM issue is way important to our brothers and sisters in Ghana. I’m sure the OW issue has Guatemalans at the edge of their pews. I realize we get nothing additional until we get the basics down– and maybe it’s because I’m right in the eye of the storm here in SLC and this is the aggregate effect of all the media– but it sure seems like we (the Brethren, the church) giving undue attention to these groups. Maybe that looks more balanced to somebody on the outside.

    I thought I made some pretty good points about the overkill on Kate Kelly, only to get responses about the “more revelation” thing. I get that. I obviously didn’t express my thoughts well enough. Let’s move on.

    My comment was a reaction to Meg’s optimism (bless her heart). I disagree that it’s an exciting time for the church. I don’t think my 14 year old considers the hours I spend potty training my toddler as a very exciting block of family time.

    Regarding whether reactionary language is called for. In some forums, sure. I’m glad these things are clarified in the General Conference setting. But this has *dominated* Utah media (including church-owned) lately. The church released some official statement last week about disciplinary counsels. Perhaps that’s helpful to some. I think it just feeds the trolls. At some point it would be nice if we could get past the lowest common denominator.

  36. I see where you are coming from, Tossman. Trust me, out here in the real world (I’m currently in Georgia, where I’ve been for the past four years), OW and the angst from all it causes barely a ripple. And we’ve got temples and plenty of stakes down here. Granted, we’re not SLC. But I think Utah is in a weird twilight zone with respect to that sort of thing.

    However, let me comment on Elder Oaks’ talk. I’ve gone through it recently, more than once, and I think we’re making an assumption that it was *solely* in response to Kate Kelly and her coven of co-agitating malcontents. I think we’re being too myopic. His talk is a wonderful distillation of doctrine. Consider the fact that he quotes two arch-conservatives who gave two different talks in the 40s and 50s — an era that progressives hate. Elder Oaks quoted Joseph Fielding Smith and J. Reuben Clarke. And then tied it all together neatly with current Church thinking on the subject of priesthood and how it relates to women. Nobody could ask for a better treatment on the doctrine of the priesthood! His talk is going to be a Conference Classic for decades to come. I guarantee it.

    It’s easy to get frustrated with things. I, for one, am tired of progressives constantly driving the discourse. But Elder Oaks gave us red gospel meat in his talk. It wasn’t milk. And we should be grateful for that.

  37. Michael, you’ve distilled my thoughts into one concise sentence: “I, for one, am tired of progressives constantly driving the discourse.”

    And I agree, Utah is a twilight zone when it comes to these things. Unfortunately I think this mishmash of Mormonism concentrate and vehement counter-culture it is the prism through which the media sees the church. I’ll cheer the day when something else is driving the discourse.

    By the way, I’d love to see a thematic pattern analysis of Elder Bednar, Elder Oaks, and President Eyring’s talks over time!

  38. Joseph Smith Junior spilled revelation like a spring flood over a long parched desert. There are some indications that things sometimes came so fast that it took some time before he realized the implications of what he had written or dictated under the influence of the Spirit. Even now the Church is struggling to encompass the
    mighty scope of the Restoration. The Articles of Faith have not been edited or amended since published, and they represent only a fraction of all the doctrines that are utterly new to the Christian world, although ancient scripture leaves many hints, such as premotal life with God, the Council in Heaven, exaltation, degrees of glory, family links through eternity, the nature of the soul as a melding of spirit and glorified body etc. I have been impressed by how often our leaders provide us with refining instructions, ie. correlation, basing temple constuction and other church building financing on worthy activity and faithfulness, the integration of cutting edge communications technology to aid family research and provide members throughout the world with virtually instantaneous access to the words of the Prophets, the unfolding of the quorums of the seventy to replace awkward interim measures such as the Assistants to the Twelve.
    I will use an agricultual analogy. Joseph Smith was given the land and excellent and fairly inclusive instructions on planting and raising a crop. Those who followed him worked the land, improved the soil and harvested the crops according to the excellent instructions and they are always open to receive further instructions from the same source that inspired Joseph. The idea of changing procedures just for the sake of novelty is anathema to these careful stewards. However as new fields are opened and technology aids the planting and harvest there is an expansion of reach while staying true to the master plan. As a young person I wat hed eagerly for profound new revelation, but now I recognize that it is a constant, steady flow, sometimes as course correction, but more often as expansion of scope.

  39. Tman, thanks for the clarification. Of course local/statewide news outside of the mormon corridor doesnt cover this matter, so we’re perceiving two entirely different vistas. All “we” got was the two Gen Conf talks (Elder Oaks’ and that one sister’s talk in Womens conf, forgot her name already.) and we got a brief mention in national news, at least one from ABC, and a small story in the UK’s Daily Mail, which I think was pretty even-handed.

    Us outside the mormon corridor did not get bombarded like ya’ll did.

    @mt, if I may make a suggestion to your alliteration:
    “Kate Kelly and her…”, no, it would not be charitable. I’ll send it in email.
    I need to keep reminding myself to not judge others because their sins are different from mine.

    I went through a fifteen year period during which I had bitter feelings towards the church because of my perceived hurts, and I requested name removal back in the 90’s. It can take years before the realization of the full weight of our actions sinks in. KK will some day have her “realization”, either in this life or the next. And the moment that full realization sinks in, it is very painful, and crushing. So…. Knowing how painful that is, I/we need to be compassionate and charitable towards her and all who rebel or sin in any way. For all we know “they know not what they do.” We can make guesses, deductions, inferences, reasoned analyses, but none of us really _knows_ her heart in the way the Lord does.

    Legrand Richards talked about the “movie” of our lives that is presented to us soon after we die, when we supposedly have a “mini judgement” before the Lord. In that movie, when we see ourselves as we really are, how the Lord and others see us, it will be very humbling/crushing indeed, for all of us. For we all have sins that we dont know of, any many of us have sins/flaws/shortcomings we are aware of or sort-of aware of but refuse to deal with.

  40. Tossman said: “I don’t think my 14 year old considers the hours I spend potty training my toddler as a very exciting block of family time.”

    It depends on what the toddler is doing… LOL The time one of my toddlers pressure-peed the carpet was rather exciting, I think. And there were the times when we were encouraging #2 to occur in the toilet and rewarding such with chocolate. The excited choruses of “I pooped!!” were pretty darned amusing.

    I’m possibly excited because I live in a place where folks are sufficiently aware of the situation that it’s showing up in how they teach the youth, in a great way. It’s so fabulous to see these teens be taught that they have power, taught doctrine instead of folkways. They are engaged in a way a prior generation was not. The kids know what is happening and it’s showing up in their comments and posture and commitment. True there are a few who don’t come to Church because their friends lead complex lives that aren’t consistent with gospel mores, but it was ever so.

  41. “the unfolding of the quorums of the seventy to replace awkward interim measures such as the Assistants to the Twelve.”

    Pat, I appreciate this insight. When this changed in 1976, it was a huge deal. And when further change happened in 1995 with the additional of area authority seventies and additional quorums of the seventy, it was another *major* change. I still don’t think we appreciate these changes as the revelations that they were, but they did, in fact, come of revelation to Pres. Kimball and Pres. Hinckley.

    “In that movie, when we see ourselves as we really are, how the Lord and others see us, it will be very humbling/crushing indeed, for all of us. For we all have sins that we dont know of, any many of us have sins/flaws/shortcomings we are aware of or sort-of aware of but refuse to deal with.”

    Bookslinger, you are right. I have to keep reminding myself of these truths, and I thank you for giving us this reminder. In praying for Kate Kelly, we should utilize this an opportunity for all of us to repent and move closer to the truths that we love.

  42. Bookslinger, I think lI ooked at Bruce Charlton’s blog some time ago because of a link you gave in one of your comments to another post – thanks he has some terrific insights. There is also this post of his that directly address the OW movement which I think is quite insightful.


    On the subject of modern day revelation, I’m surprised that no-one has mentioned the Proclamation on the Family – truly a prophetic declaration if ever there was one.

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