A faithful member of the Church dies. All that you know about her is that at the time of her death she was genuinely worthy of a temple recommend and was sealed in the temple to her husband and children. With what degree of certainty would you feel comfortable in asserting that she will be recieve exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?
Actually, I think that we would be overstepping our bounds to make any judgement one way or the other on anyone. That said, I don’t see an objection to making the statement, with the caveat that we really can’t judge.
Is there a reason you’re asking?
I don’t think a temple recommend per se really says much of anything about a person or their qualifications for exaltation. Too many liars get them. Too many people who have them certainly are not living a Celestial law.
I’d agree with John C. We simply don’t know people’s hearts nor do we really understand much about what happens in the next life. It is hard to say and probably inappropriate to say. Many we’d judge as shoe-ins for exaltation might not obtain it. And many we may look down upon and never consider as worthy will get there before us.
Death in this life isn’t the end. I would have a hard time believing that we have no moral agency in spirit paradise/prison (although I could buy into the idea that it is reduced). There is still the posibiity one could jump off of the deep end fromt he strait and narrow on the other side of the veil.
To return to the idea of we don’t know what’s in people hearts, we also don’t know to what degree they are able to excercise their moral agency on this side of the veil. One example would be how do you judge a crack whore? Ok, now what if you find out she has some serious brain toumors in the frontal lobe and amigdala (sp?) that makes restraint and saying no literally a forgein concept? And that just addresses the issues we know about from science.
This includes people whose brains are wired to become alchoholic, they may only be held to account for that first beer and not the hundreds.
So to go back to the original, in that case I’de say you can feel pretty good they are worthy of the celestial kingdom, but until you recieve a vision showing her there (like Joseph Smith did with Alvin) I wouldn’t use the term certainty.
Don, the setup is not just that she has a temple reccomend, but that she is genuinely worthy of it.
As such, I would say that yes, she has a ticket to the CK. Being worthy to hold a temple reccomend is to me, the most we can hope to acheive in this life. (unless some of you ultra-righteous mormons have a secret society I’m unaware of.)
I would even say the same of someone who is worthy to hold a temple reccomend and has not entered into celestial marraige, as a a single cannot always control whether they find a companion.
75%
What about faithful, celibate (single) gay members? Are they eligible for exaltation?
I should add that my view is that there will be many more tests after this life prior to exaltation. I know it is a common idea that there is final judgment and then exaltation for the righteous. However I think little has been revealed and that things will prove to be much more involved and complex.
That’s funny. I tend to think things will be much simpler. Or maybe just that our understanding will be greater.
I think we underestimate the power of grace to make up for our foibles and peccadilloes.
100%.
Threadjack warning! celestial speculation.
When do we recieve our exaltation? When we are resurrected is it pass fail on that? My opinion (and it is just that, opinion) is that which of the degrees of the celetial kingom we are fixed to is not determined when we are resurrected. There is still more work and qualificaion to do! When we are resurrected we are only resurrected to Telestial, Terestrial, or Celestial. The wording in the D&C explains that there are more divisions to the celestial, but whether or not we recieve exaltation is not given at resurrection, but afterwards.
Threadjack over.
If a person is truly worthy of a recomend, they should be worthy to enter the Celestial Kingdom. True worthiness or genuine worthiness is much more than saying yes or no to the interview questions. If a person is truly worthy, genuinely worthy, then they will have always been doing their best to bend their will to that of the Lord. Our best is all that can be expected.
She’s on her way!
Though, as Joseph Smith said (in so many words), it will be a great while after this life before we learn our exaltation. And so, I kinda sorta agree with Clark–except that the “testing” he referes to IMO won’t necessarily have to do with sorting the good fish from the bad. I think it’ll have more to do with the pruning we’ll need as (say) a plant that’s in the process of growing into an exalted stature.
Bruce R. McConkie, October conference, 1976
“There is no equivocation, no doubt, no uncertainty in our minds. Those who have been true and faithful in this life will not fall by the wayside in the life to come. If they keep their covenants here and now and depart this life firm and true in the testimony of our blessed Lord, they shall come forth with an inheritance of eternal life.
We do not mean to say that those who die in the Lord, and who are true and faithful in this life, must be perfect in all things when they go into the next sphere of existence. There was only one perfect man—the Lord Jesus whose Father was God.
There have been many righteous souls who have attained relative degrees of perfection, and there have been great hosts of faithful people who have kept the faith, and lived the law, and departed this life with the full assurance of an eventual inheritance of eternal life.
There are many things they will do and must do, even beyond the grave, to merit the fulness of the Father’s kingdom in that final glorious day when the great King shall say unto them, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.†(Matt. 25:34.)
But what we are saying is that when the saints of God chart a course of righteousness, when they gain sure testimonies of the truth and divinity of the Lord’s work, when they keep the commandments, when they overcome the world, when they put first in their lives the things of God’s kingdom: when they do all these things, and then depart this life—though they have not yet become perfect—they shall nonetheless gain eternal life in our Father’s kingdom; and eventually they shall be perfect as God their Father and Christ His Son are perfect.”
98.6% Fahrenheit
98.6 percent of how many degrees?
Just to be safe I’m going to say she getting the second degree down from the top. I’m rooting for her though!
Why not? I’ll go all the way:
Perdition. If she was truly worthy, she would have been translated. Instead she died. Obviously, unworthy.
Not.
I have no idea. I try not to judge. I figure if(!) I get to the top level of the Celestial kingdom, I’ll be surprised by who I see there, and they will likely be surprised to see me.
100%
The path is strait and narrow is the way but their travel is easier and more assured than 98.6% of Mormons imagine.
#6 As such, I would say that yes, she has a ticket to the CK. Being worthy to hold a temple reccomend is to me, the most we can hope to acheive in this life. (unless some of you ultra-righteous mormons have a secret society I’m unaware of.)
I have to note that so far everyone’s comments constitute wild speculation. So here’s my question: do we have any reason to believe that the correct answer is not 10%? I don’t think so. Pretty much any guess from 1 to 100 is just as good as any other.
As such, I think it’s valuable, for our own sakes, to go low. An attitude of mediocrity being sufficient only fosters further mediocrity – and it does not bring us closer to the Lord. And I think an attitude that a temple recommend is good enough is outright dangerous.
I think the Lord has awfully great expectations of us. We are his children, after all.
I mostly agree with Eric. Knowing that she is worthy of a temple recommend is close to meaningless. All it takes to be genuinely worthy of a temple recommend is that you believe in Jesus and the Church, avoid certain sins, and pay tithing. Granted, those can be difficult things to do. But hateful, selfish, mean people who never do anything nice for anyone can meet those criteria. What we don’t know about this hypothetical worthy temple recommend holder, and what we can never know, is what was in her heart. We don’t know if she was motivated to meet the requirements for temple worthiness by a genuine love of God, or by pride, or by fear. We don’t know what kind of service she rendered and with what attitude. We don’t know if her faith was strong enough to weather the storms that she didn’t have to face. What we don’t know about her is so overwhelming and so unknowable that any speculation is meaningless.
I also agree with Eric that we should hold ourselves to a very high standard. I don’t believe any of us will ever reach a point in our lives where we “have it made.” There will always be room for improvement and we should always be aware of our shortcomings and be diligent in overcoming them. There is some danger in setting the bar so high for ourselves, though, in that when we fail we tend to beat ourselves up and doubt our worth. We need to remember that God loves us no matter how well we do and that he understands and expects that we will fail. Often. What he requires is that we keep giving it our best.
So, Tom what you are saying is in effect that any modern day LDS Pharisee can hold a temple recommend. But I think that the original statement posits that she is worthy in the Lord’s eyes of holding a temple recommend. We’re not saying that she’s perfect, but is genuinely striving to be so. Whereas the LDS Pharisees thinks they have already achieved perfection.
How can we know that she is worthy in the Lord’s eyes? Or if she’s genuinely striving for perfection? We can’t. If we are to make a speculative judgment all we can take into account is what we can know. Knowing that a woman honestly passed the recommend interview and is sealed to her husband, gives me very little to no certainty in asserting that she’ll receive the highest reward in heaven.
If the original question posits that we know that the woman worthily (in a technical sense) received all the necessary ordinances and that we somehow know that the Lord is pleased with the woman’s efforts, then one can have no doubt–she will be exhalted.
On the other hand, I’m reminded how certain Elder Nelson was about his wife’s standing before the Lord in his General Conference talk after she died. I remember being surprised by the things he said in that talk. He didn’t refrain from judging her. He was certain that she had it made. Of course, he knew more than just that she was a worthy recommend holder and that she was sealed. It’s possible to know quite a lot about what’s in the hearts of those with whom we are most intimate. Still, I was surprised at the degree of certainty he expressed in GC.
I think the word used in the description says it all; Genuine. While we obviously are not the Judge or Judges of this woman’s character and life, the word genuine says more than maybe we think it does. Webster’s has this to say- 1a: actually having the reputed and apparent qualities or character. 1b: actually produced by or proceeding from the alleged source or author. 1c: sincerely and honestlyfelt or experienced. 1d: actual, true. 2: free from hypocrisy or pretense: sincere.
The definition of the word says a lot. To be genuine means to actually, honestly or sincerely do something. If she was genuinely worthy to hold a recomend, then she was actually, honestly and sincrely worthy.
If the question said only that she held a recomend, I would agree, we have no way of knowing what was in her heart. But, she being genuinely worthy tells me that she is genuine in all her dealings. Not just when she sits across from her Bishop or Stake President.
There was a story a few years ago of a ward temple trip (somewhere in South America, I believe) where the bus was involved in a terrible accident killing all 20-30 members on board.
I remember afterwards, a member of the 12 stating how pleased and at peace he was with the fact that these members were recommend holders and that they recently pronounced worthy to enter into the Lord’s house and therefore worthy to enter into the Lord’s kingdom.
I’ll try to find the reference for you.
Maybe the Nelsons had been through the Second Endowment and had had their calling and election made sure. Maybe that’s why Elder Nelson had been so certain.
dan b. (#27),
Then I guess my contention is that we can’t know how genuinely worthy she was. All we can know is if she was technically worthy. Even that’s hard to know for sure.
100 percent. No lie, that’s how I feel. I’ve experienced it. I could wax poetic if you want.
I, myself, have a recommend. I do not want to be a wife and mother for eternity. Although at the moment, I like my husband very much and I think I would miss him. My kids, they can visit. Now my grandkids, different story. Everybody else can write.
Tom of #26,
Elder Nelson could speak thusly of his wife because of the Temple ordinance he and his wife had received together, which the vast majority of mormons have not yet received, which the Endowment ceremony hints that we will receive if we are true and faithful in all things. The ordinance seals a couple up to eternal life and makes them kings and priests, queens and priestesses. This ordinance must be received by the apostles and their spouses because it consists of the keys of the kingdom that must remain on the earth for a fullness of the priesthood. It is the equivalent of having one’s calling and election made sure. It is what the apostles in Nauvoo had over Sidney Rigdon when the question of succession was decided.
Well, color me double-surprised.
Thanks everyone for the interesting comments.
Now how would you know something like this? Some higher endowment doesn’t seem like something Elder Nelson would be telling everyone.
As you can see, Elder Nelson didn’t tell anyone about his second annointing. The so called, “second annointing” is the ordinance all apostles must receive in order to be co-holders of the keys of the kingdom. Elder Nelson being an apostle must therefore have necessarily received this ordinance. It is received as a couple, not individually and therefore his wife must have received it as well.
The second annointing is not widely discussed in the Church due to the sacred nature of it. I learned of it in Andrew F. Ehat’s awesome thesis on the question of succession in 1844.
The receipt of this ordinance is sacred and those who receive it generally do not speak of it in public. It was the crowning ordinance of this dispensation in Joseph Smith’s and his close associates eyes when he received it with Emma in Sept. of 1843.
Do you have any more sources that would point to the fact that modern day Apostles all have their calling and election made sure?
Tom
#30
I agree, there is no way for you or I to truly know whether she was genuinely worthy. I was just addressing the question in the context it was posed.
jjohnsen,
There are not any church published works which mention the second annointing. This was established when Ehat presented his research to Bruce R. McKonkey who presented it to the 12. Of the 12, 4 wanted to publish his work and 8 were against it as I recall. The subject matter discussed was too sacred for the 8 to consider publishing.
Ehat’s work itself draws upon practically every source available from the Nauvoo era.
It makes perfect sense that each apostle needs to be annointed a king and a priest if one considers that this authority is needed in the Church in order to provide the fulness of the Gospel, the new and everlasting covenant, to its membership. Without this authority, we would do just as well with Sidney Rigdon as the prophet since he too had received an endowment.
Although to be fair more work has been done since Ehat’s work. People have quibbled with parts of it. Lots of people have Ehat’s work, despite it not being made public. Further there are lots of other document collections on the topic floating around.
However I’d suggest this isn’t a good topic to discuss here.
I’d also add that the anointing and the sealing of the anointing by the Holy Spirit of Promise are not the same thing. One is the ordinance while the other is the literal more sure word of prophecy. I’d also note that while McConkie was against publishing this, he’s actually written quite a bit on it if you read his New Testament Commentary. He’s doing a Nibleyesque kind of vague writing. But if you’ve read Ehat then McConkie’s writings are fairly clear.
I should also mention that Pres. Hinkley actually spoke for reportedly 2 hours on this topic at a Stake Priesthood session on my mission. It was outside of my boundaries so I didn’t attend. But I heard accounts from those who did and it sounded like it was quite an amazing sermon and fairly explicit.
McConkie loved the subject of making ones calling and election sure. Even the hymns he wrote reflect this. The 4th verse of Hymn#21 was written by him and it surrounds the topic.
Agreed that the ordinance and the more sure word of prophecy are two separate things and that the sealing by the Holy Spirit of promise is still necessary.
Agreed that this is not the best place to discuss this. I’d love to hear a modern day prophet speak on the topic. Wish I could have heard Hinckley’s words on it.
This is all assuming that she WANTS to be in the Celestial Kingdom. Maybe she is tired and looks forward to an eternity of rest, not more work. I think the Terrestial Kingdom will be filled with many Celestially worthy people who chose not to progress for one reason or another.
Gilgamesh,
At first, I scoffed at your statement, but after a little thinking, you may be right, our agency will continue after this life. I’m not so sure anyone would make that choice, but it’s still possible.
0%
– At least those are the chances that she will immediately receive a fulness of exaltation.
Agency and repentance continues in the eternities to come. We will be fully exalted only when we are fully like and unified with God. That will take a lot more time.
Robyn,
YES.
Curtis stated that Apostles must have there second annointings and so all apostles have theirs. But this is not always the case. Michael Quinn in “Extensions of Power” makes a strong case for the second annointing even being with held from almost everyone for a number of years during the presidency Heber J. Grant. Pres. Grant became upset because of some members getting up in meetings and discussing this ordinance after having received it. So for a long time even some of the newly called apostles had not received it. Only after the pleas by other members of the quorum of the twelve did Pres. Grant agree to give the new members the ordinance. And it appears that at least for a time after that it was not given as often. As for today I have no idea. I have some papers in electronic form that I was given by a friend about the second annointing. If any one would like a copy just email me and I will be happy to send you a copy.
Oh here is my email address
englishwithsteve@mac.com
I have to wonder, why are there so many kingdoms and levels in kingdoms if we are all going to make it to the highest in the CK?
I also think that you can be worthy of a temple recommend and still have a lot you are refusing to do for the Lord. And I also think that there are people who might not be worthy of a recommend at the time of death who might be giving 100% of their ability to the Lord. I do not think it is some sort of ticket to get into heaven. Its a ticket to get into the temple.
I have to admit, though, I have no idea how we will be judged. I guess I’ll just have to wait and see.
#42 is bang on the money! Go read Mormon 9:3–4, ponder it and then you’ll see that this is so true that we will not be forced into the CK, not ever, or eternally! I had a Bishop once say that he thought that there would be a lot of brethren surprised in the next life that their wives actually do not want to be married/sealed to them afterall and will ‘Choose’ to leave and be happy where they want to be happy. Afterall, the blessings of sealings are only based upon choosing worthiness in this life anyways. Agency is truly eternal not just limited to pre-mortal and mortal life!
I also think that #10 is right that our understanding will/may be enhanced making it easier, or perhaps harder because we will understand better. Time to get prepared!
I like the commentaries of having more time between the resurrection and judgement to actually do more to determine where we will go, which perhaps helps to conclude that is why temple work for the dead is helpful in them gaining salvation also. Hmmm, some interesting insights there.
For Pete’s sake. Get a life. Why don’t you just enjoy your family and life instead of anaylizing what could be. I’m so sick of Christians saying “I’m christian” instead of acting on it. I don’t go to church but if it were a comparison I would be the one closer to God. I try to be good to others and good to myself. Just because I don’t go to a church doesn’t mean I don’t deserve. This is a time where the Golden Rule of “Do unto others” is most necessary. Please be nice to everyone and don’t waste your time wondering about those from the past. Our time is a much different situation to resolve.