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	<title>Comments on: Trinitarian Mormons: Orson Pratt</title>
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	<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/</link>
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		<title>By: The Father and the Son are Jehovah &#171; By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-35045</link>
		<dc:creator>The Father and the Son are Jehovah &#171; By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-35045</guid>
		<description>[...] (That Mormons sometimes see Jehovah as the Father is demonstrated by this old post. For an argument that Mormons are more Trinitarian than they realise, see Clark&#8217;s post.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (That Mormons sometimes see Jehovah as the Father is demonstrated by this old post. For an argument that Mormons are more Trinitarian than they realise, see Clark&#8217;s post.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: More Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-30119</link>
		<dc:creator>More Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-30119</guid>
		<description>[...] blog named Heart Issues for LDS has mentioned my recent posts on the Trinity (two at M* here and  and one here at MM) It’s an interesting blog. It’s written by a Baptism pastor from up in Idaho [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blog named Heart Issues for LDS has mentioned my recent posts on the Trinity (two at M* here and  and one here at MM) It’s an interesting blog. It’s written by a Baptism pastor from up in Idaho [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-30079</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 04:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-30079</guid>
		<description> BTW - I put a more technical followup on potential problems with this view of compatibility with the Trinity &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/03/07/problems-with-mormons-and-the-trinity&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;up at my philosophy blog&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW &#8211; I put a more technical followup on potential problems with this view of compatibility with the Trinity <a href="http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/03/07/problems-with-mormons-and-the-trinity" rel="nofollow">up at my philosophy blog</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-30073</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-30073</guid>
		<description>With regards to the orthodox view of the creeds the problem is that &#039;beings&#039; is a kind of equivocal view.  Beings as typically used refers to creatures and given their adoption of &lt;i&gt;creation ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt; they must make a distinction between creature and creator.  So typically they&#039;ll say that while humans are beings the persons of the Godhead are not.  However in other contexts they&#039;ll talk about them as beings since they are different entities with a single nature or substance.

Social trinitarianism &lt;i&gt;I believe&lt;/i&gt; maintains the doctrine of &lt;i&gt;creation ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt; and thus would take a similar stance.

As I&#039;ve noted though Mormons believe that at least &lt;i&gt;something&lt;/i&gt; essential to us is eternal and uncreated.  So in a sense we end up moving human beings to a place where we are &lt;i&gt;organized&lt;/i&gt; but &lt;i&gt;uncreated&lt;/i&gt;.

All this does highlight the problem of being careful in how we talk about all this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regards to the orthodox view of the creeds the problem is that &#8216;beings&#8217; is a kind of equivocal view.  Beings as typically used refers to creatures and given their adoption of <i>creation ex nihilo</i> they must make a distinction between creature and creator.  So typically they&#8217;ll say that while humans are beings the persons of the Godhead are not.  However in other contexts they&#8217;ll talk about them as beings since they are different entities with a single nature or substance.</p>
<p>Social trinitarianism <i>I believe</i> maintains the doctrine of <i>creation ex nihilo</i> and thus would take a similar stance.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve noted though Mormons believe that at least <i>something</i> essential to us is eternal and uncreated.  So in a sense we end up moving human beings to a place where we are <i>organized</i> but <i>uncreated</i>.</p>
<p>All this does highlight the problem of being careful in how we talk about all this.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-30068</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 06:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-30068</guid>
		<description>Geoff B. asked: &lt;i&gt;Question for you: do mainstream Christians accept the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father are really separate beings today, separate materially but unified in spirit and purpose?&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s kind of a tricky question if the Heavenly Father is immaterial. Jesus, though, presumably has a body in traditional non-LDS Christian thought.

The idea of separate beings has similarities to social trinitarianism, which some &quot;mainstream&quot; theologians have proposed. I&#039;m not sure the idea itself is part of the mainstream, though.

I think part of the problem with dealing with what &quot;mainstream&quot; Christians believe is that so many of them (I&#039;m not talking about seminary graduates here) believe in a type of modalism rather than the doctrine of the Nicene creed. It&#039;s technically a heretical view, but common nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff B. asked: <i>Question for you: do mainstream Christians accept the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father are really separate beings today, separate materially but unified in spirit and purpose?</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s kind of a tricky question if the Heavenly Father is immaterial. Jesus, though, presumably has a body in traditional non-LDS Christian thought.</p>
<p>The idea of separate beings has similarities to social trinitarianism, which some &#8220;mainstream&#8221; theologians have proposed. I&#8217;m not sure the idea itself is part of the mainstream, though.</p>
<p>I think part of the problem with dealing with what &#8220;mainstream&#8221; Christians believe is that so many of them (I&#8217;m not talking about seminary graduates here) believe in a type of modalism rather than the doctrine of the Nicene creed. It&#8217;s technically a heretical view, but common nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: By Common Consent &#38;raquo; The Father and the Son are Jehovah</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-30057</link>
		<dc:creator>By Common Consent &#38;raquo; The Father and the Son are Jehovah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 16:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-30057</guid>
		<description>[...] That Mormons sometimes see Jehovah as the Father is demonstrated by this old post. For an argument that Mormons are more Trinitarian than they realise, see Clark’s post. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] That Mormons sometimes see Jehovah as the Father is demonstrated by this old post. For an argument that Mormons are more Trinitarian than they realise, see Clark’s post. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Problems with Mormons and the Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-30032</link>
		<dc:creator>Problems with Mormons and the Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-30032</guid>
		<description>[...] at Millennial Star last week. I had two posts (here and here) on how the mainstream doctrine of the Trinity and Mormon theology are compatible. They were more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at Millennial Star last week. I had two posts (here and here) on how the mainstream doctrine of the Trinity and Mormon theology are compatible. They were more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-29884</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-29884</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;[Edit: this comment appears to have been mangled in our server problems.  I&#039;ve tried to reconstruct it as be I can.]&lt;/i&gt;

I think Orson Pratt had a profound influence on 20th century Mormon thought.  He adopted a kind of theological absolutism which JFS and BRM carried as well as a basically nominalistic approach to the issue.  His approach to materialism wasn&#039;t followed, mainly because B. H. Roberts adopted an immaterial Cartesian mind as the explanation of intelligence.  However in most other areas Pratt&#039;s ideas were taken up by both movements in the 20th century.  (JFS&#039; views in particular were highly influenced by OP)  I&#039;d note that Pratt&#039;s main theological opposition was Brigham Young yet in nearly every place they disagreed 20th century thinkers followed Pratt rather than young.

His ultimate materialistic ontology hasn&#039;t been followed.  As I said that&#039;s partially because Roberts, Talmage and Widstoe modified it somewhat to have our basic intelligence - spirit -body trichotomy that most accept today: with intelligence being basically a disembodied Cartesian mind.  I think there are problems with this view as well.  I&#039;d note that most thinkers of the last 20 years have been moving away from the Roberts view.  (Noting, as Blake Ostler does, that in Nauvoo spirit and intelligence were used synonymously)  

The other problem with Pratt is he adopted whole heartedly the idea of atoms as the ultimate constituents of matter as was widely believed in the mid-19th century.  Of course physics has moved quite a way beyond that.  First to field theories and then to finding more basic constituents of matter and then to our current understanding of quantum theory and general relativity.  So his materialism which was so key to his thinking seems quite quaint and antiquated.  Likewise his idea of spiritual fluid was highly influenced by the scientific notion of an &lt;i&gt;aether&lt;/i&gt; which was disproven first by finding the speed of light was a constant and then completely replaced by Einstein&#039;s theory of relativity.  So Pratt&#039;s key problem was trying, in a naive way, to reconcile Mormon theology to science.

Despite those problems I think it safe to say that the history of 20th century Mormonism is pretty much a history of the influence of Pratt&#039;s way of conceiving Mormonism and a move away from the typical 19th century way of thinking.  That&#039;s changed somewhat the last 20 years as more early texts are read closely - especially those from Joseph&#039;s Nauvoo.  However this has led probably to more diversity of views than anything.  I should also note that Pratt&#039;s panpsychism (the idea that the substance of the universe has rudimentary sentience and can obey God) is more widespread among Mormons than I suspect many believe.  It was widely discussed at BYU while I was there with no one even attributing it to Pratt as the source.  (Although he was influenced by various other texts such as Moses 7)  I don&#039;t think it was help by the majority of Mormons - especially not with the number of converts we have who don&#039;t read up on theology.  But it was surprisingly widespread in the Wasatch region of the Church even if arguably it is among the most controversial of Pratt&#039;s ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>[Edit: this comment appears to have been mangled in our server problems.  I've tried to reconstruct it as be I can.]</i></p>
<p>I think Orson Pratt had a profound influence on 20th century Mormon thought.  He adopted a kind of theological absolutism which JFS and BRM carried as well as a basically nominalistic approach to the issue.  His approach to materialism wasn&#8217;t followed, mainly because B. H. Roberts adopted an immaterial Cartesian mind as the explanation of intelligence.  However in most other areas Pratt&#8217;s ideas were taken up by both movements in the 20th century.  (JFS&#8217; views in particular were highly influenced by OP)  I&#8217;d note that Pratt&#8217;s main theological opposition was Brigham Young yet in nearly every place they disagreed 20th century thinkers followed Pratt rather than young.</p>
<p>His ultimate materialistic ontology hasn&#8217;t been followed.  As I said that&#8217;s partially because Roberts, Talmage and Widstoe modified it somewhat to have our basic intelligence &#8211; spirit -body trichotomy that most accept today: with intelligence being basically a disembodied Cartesian mind.  I think there are problems with this view as well.  I&#8217;d note that most thinkers of the last 20 years have been moving away from the Roberts view.  (Noting, as Blake Ostler does, that in Nauvoo spirit and intelligence were used synonymously)  </p>
<p>The other problem with Pratt is he adopted whole heartedly the idea of atoms as the ultimate constituents of matter as was widely believed in the mid-19th century.  Of course physics has moved quite a way beyond that.  First to field theories and then to finding more basic constituents of matter and then to our current understanding of quantum theory and general relativity.  So his materialism which was so key to his thinking seems quite quaint and antiquated.  Likewise his idea of spiritual fluid was highly influenced by the scientific notion of an <i>aether</i> which was disproven first by finding the speed of light was a constant and then completely replaced by Einstein&#8217;s theory of relativity.  So Pratt&#8217;s key problem was trying, in a naive way, to reconcile Mormon theology to science.</p>
<p>Despite those problems I think it safe to say that the history of 20th century Mormonism is pretty much a history of the influence of Pratt&#8217;s way of conceiving Mormonism and a move away from the typical 19th century way of thinking.  That&#8217;s changed somewhat the last 20 years as more early texts are read closely &#8211; especially those from Joseph&#8217;s Nauvoo.  However this has led probably to more diversity of views than anything.  I should also note that Pratt&#8217;s panpsychism (the idea that the substance of the universe has rudimentary sentience and can obey God) is more widespread among Mormons than I suspect many believe.  It was widely discussed at BYU while I was there with no one even attributing it to Pratt as the source.  (Although he was influenced by various other texts such as <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/7" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 7">Moses 7</a>)  I don&#8217;t think it was help by the majority of Mormons &#8211; especially not with the number of converts we have who don&#8217;t read up on theology.  But it was surprisingly widespread in the Wasatch region of the Church even if arguably it is among the most controversial of Pratt&#8217;s ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Duffin</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-29883</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Duffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-29883</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just glad that the school in Provo was named for Brigham Young and not Orson Pratt. Can you imagine attending OPU? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just glad that the school in Provo was named for Brigham Young and not Orson Pratt. Can you imagine attending OPU? <img src='http://www.millennialstar.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Geoff B</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/comment-page-1/#comment-29875</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/#comment-29875</guid>
		<description>OK, Clark, I understand your point now.  Yes, it&#039;s not really the trinity Joseph Smith had a problem with after the First Vision -- it&#039;s the idea that God is somehow a Spirit without a body.  I also agree that many Church members tend to simplify this issue and say things like, &quot;was Jesus praying to himself?&quot; to reject the traditional view of the trinity.

Question for you:  do mainstream Christians accept the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father are really separate beings today, separate materially but unified in spirit and purpose?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Clark, I understand your point now.  Yes, it&#8217;s not really the trinity Joseph Smith had a problem with after the First Vision &#8212; it&#8217;s the idea that God is somehow a Spirit without a body.  I also agree that many Church members tend to simplify this issue and say things like, &#8220;was Jesus praying to himself?&#8221; to reject the traditional view of the trinity.</p>
<p>Question for you:  do mainstream Christians accept the idea that Jesus and Heavenly Father are really separate beings today, separate materially but unified in spirit and purpose?</p>
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