Shadenfreude and gleeful laughter ensue among its competitors, as bloggernacle has-been TimesandSeasons is delisted from the Oceanic Islands and relisted as a mere Island of the Sea on Mormon Archipelago. Spinmeisters will surely claim a technical snafu and re-promote it after the powerful forces of the pro-clavicle lobby apply pressure to the MA.
Well, a site can only ban so many entertaining commenters before the inevitable happens. What did they expect? It was only a matter of time.
That’s like kicking the U.S. out of the U.N..
Demotion? With both T&S and Clark’s blog, I think Box 3 might now be the hot box at MA.
The Mormon Archipelago founding committee has come to the decision, over a period of months, that to have top-box status at ldsblogs.org a blog ought to display the MA logo above the fold. This seemed to us to be a fair reciprocation of the exposure that ldsblogs.org provides to the Bloggernacle. We understand that Times and Seasons are currently unwilling to do that.
The MA committee wants to make it clear that we are all friends with the Times and Seasons bloggers and still very much admire T&S. We just felt that it was an issue of fairness: if you have a priority position at ldsblogs.org you should use our logo.
Ah! Blackmail. That explains it.
I’m working on promoting MM so that all three of the blogs I post at are in the same box, Dave. (grin)
Is/are “Times & Seasons” plural or singular? Does the plural refer to permabloggers? (If so which are Times and which are Seasons?) Or does it refer to the Times and Seasons that the title presumably is talking about?
Fascinating. I had not taken a close look at the MA layout before. What is the rationale for placing the boxes that way? Isn’t the value of MA to provide a sort of amalgam, rendering it more efficient for people to follow the lower-traffic blogs? In that case, putting a feed for high-traffic blogs like BCC, M*, and T&S “above the fold” would seem to defeat the purpose. Unless, perhaps, the purpose is to make the founders’ blogs’ section show up in the same view as these high-traffic blogs?
Of course, if people were to go to MA to find out what is happening on T&S . . . then, ironically, putting T&S in a box with some lower traffic blogs actually might increase the value of the site.
(raises one eyebrow)
Unless, of course, the volume of posting at T&S were to swamp the category.
MA administrators: you’re being too kind to T&S. Drop them (and any other miscreant blogs) from the MA page altogether if they refuse the mark of the
beastMA. Play hardball, or chicken I guess, by doing the experiment: drop T&S and see if it negatively impacts MA traffic. What do you have to lose? Who will flinch first?(Note that the Spinozist proudly and gratefully displays the mark of the
beastMA. He might even agree to put it above the fold if promoted to the next box along with the others who recently left him behind. ;-> )Unbelievable. Un-freaking-believable.
I have been pushing for an MA banner now for months. Like all T&S votes, it takes a while. (T&S operates kind of like the Ents — we talk about things for a long time). The MA group knows this. And I had the votes. There were more bloggers in favor than opposed, by a healthy margin. Debate wasn’t yet closed, but it was clear which way the wind was blowing. I had the votes. I knew it, and I made it pretty clear to MA that this was going to happen. I had to shepherd it through, but it was going to happen. And I told this to both Geoff and J. Hell, I went out and asked for (and got) a matching logo from Rusty (via J.).
I haven’t had a chance to sit on the issue for the past month. I’ve been grading exams; then out of pocket in Arizona; now at a conference. It was on my agenda for _next week_ when I got back to San Diego and had time to push it through.
MA knew their banner was going to be added, and soon. The timing is unbelievable. I’m trying to think of a legitimate or non-malicious explanation, but I’m drawing a blank. Frankly, since I’ve told them that it’s going to be happening (and soon), the most likely explanation in my mind is that they wish to create an appearance that they made T&S cave in, that they can throw their weight around. Why else pull this stunt _now_, when I’ve told them that the issue is currently on the table and going to win soon? When I’ve gotten a matching banner? When half the MA is lined up to guest blog?
Looks like we have a new meaning to “Bannergate.” Sweet.
I hope this doesn’t get out of control. I guess a follow-up question for Kaimi is, why does it take months and months to decide something as simple as a logo? 1200 Mormon blogs have started up and disappeared in that time. You Ents need a kick in the pants, Treebeard.
Ned,
You obviously don’t hang out with lawyers and university professors.
I hang out with my wife quite a lot, thank you very much. If it supposedly takes T&S so long to do anything, I’m sure we’ll see their response in mid-March.
Hmmph. As scandals go, this certainly is an anticlimactic followup to the Banners of Heaven kerfuffle.
I regret Kaimi’s comment. I may be culpable for the negative fallout from the recent changes, and I appologize. I regret it, because it seems to take a miscommunication and raise it to the level of malevolence.
It was my understanding (and that of others) from the most recent communications that T&S needed many more months to consider the reciprocation and that the deliberation was going the wrong way. Perhaps the MA was too hasty. In any case, this is simply sad.
It also seems to me to be a matter of miscommunication. I think that it would be best if everybody shook hands, sorrys were handed out, and this was allowed to blow over quickly.
Besides, I am intriqued to see how the insignia would be adjusted for the T&S sensibility.
Frankly, oh wah.
I can’t believe T&S is whining about this. If anything, Our Thoughts has a lot more to whine about, but you don’t see us complaining. If only people were more interested in content and less about traffic, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue.
Honestly.
Huh? What you are seeing, Kim, is Kaimi feeling very let down after a lot of work to try to get the MA banner up at T&S, at this gesture which shows no confidence in him and might actually, if it mattered enough to annoy someone at T&S, make it harder for him to manage it, when the whole time he was trying to do them a favor. I wouldn’t call that whining!
The way Ben H. describes it, you’d think Kaimi was trying to wrangle a Presidential pardon, rather than 25 pixels on a minor website. I am as guilty of this as anyone, but I think we all need to take a deep breath, and stop taking ourselves quite so seriously.
Just to head off some criticism, by “minor website,” I mean in the grand scheme of the Internet. This is not CNN or the New York Times we’re talking about, after all. It’s not even lds.org. We’re talking about maybe a thousand hits, not tens of thousands.
Obviously, by this measure, VivaNedFlanders is non-existant. A quick glance at the T&S and M* blogrolls confirms this {insert winking emoticon here).
Ben, I know everyone over there is busy. Heavens, I’ve been tremendously busy the last six months myself. From the time I decided to get M* working with MA to the time I actually got it done it was an embarrassing month and a half (or perhaps more – the last few months have been a blur…) So I’m really sympathetic to issues of time.
I also, admittedly, have some qualms about having T&S associated with MA so integrally. Not out of any lack of respect for T&S. It’s more as a practical matter. It seems T&S is so popular in terms of comments that the comments being replicated at MA would overwhelm the comment bar. Thus removing the very utility it offers (seeing whether there are new comments at less frequented blogs). But I think everyone respects T&S and enjoys the comments there. Further I know many of you have other aspects of LDS interaction on the net or in intellectual life. (Such as your involvement with SMPT)
Having said all that, surely it isn’t that big a deal to be listed the same place my blog is listed? (grin) I mean you’re going to hurt my feelings.
Put an other way, isn’t this much ado about nothing? T&S is still there. The blogs who are MA associated are grouped together. I don’t see why this ought affect anything. I mean MA is primarily a nice tool that avoids some of the problems that the other LDS aggregator (Planet LDS) has. I don’t quite understand why people see this as a respect issue. Let’s all back away and recognize that everyone’s trying to make the experience better for each other.
hmmmm…this brings to mind :
Prov. 29: 23
and
D&C 90: 17
Clark, where did I protest the T&S placement? As it happens, I have had similar thoughts on issues like replication of comments at MA. Seems like it would defeat the purpose. So I am pretty much agnostic about how T&S should show up at MA. I enjoyed your post on hyperdrives, by the way : ) and I hope your chocolate adventure has been going well!
Lest I seem too mean-spirited, and for the humor-impaired, my post above was written entirely tongue-in-cheek. I assumed it was a technical snafu.
No actual snark intended.
Ben H,
Forgive me if I don’t see what your explaining to me. I fail to see why it would even take “a lot of work to try to get the MA banner up at T&S”. Granted I am not a T&S insider and am not fmailiar with how they run things or how this and that person feels to word this or that blog.
Sorry Ben, I didn’t mean to imply you were upset. (Nor that anyone was upset) Just pointing out that I don’t think there ought be a controversy.
And the chocolate business is going well. We’re actually getting people calling us and placing big orders and we haven’t even opened yet.
Kim, if it is like what I went through at M*, many bloggers aren’t technically inclined, people are busy with work, dissertations (and writing posts), and it just doesn’t get gotten to.
Wow. Did I just enter a time warp and go back to high school? Is this really that serious?
mmmm…chocolate
Just what I was thinking, Mary.
Did someone mention CHOCOLATE? I don’t mean to threadjack.
Although an MA, M*, T&S, and heck, Piebolar, logo, in chocolate, would be DELICOUS. Then you could literally eat your words; savor them slowly as they melt upon the tongue.
As to whether or not the MA choco-log was packaged above the T&S logo, well, you gentlemen will have to sort that out yourselves. (Being VERY cheeky, here, lol!)
Piebolar could be both top and bottom, since I seem to hold both positions from time to time. I’d better stop there, because my mind is creating some *ahem* double entendre’s now . . .
that’s choco-logo. Not log. Can admin fix that? argh.
I would be more willing to buy a MA chocolate bar than a MA t-shirt.
I dunno, Kim. Would it be decaffeinated?
I’m with Ned. I think this is taking blogging a little too seriously. I hardly ever go to the MA site, anyway.
I like MA. It makes things so easy to find. They do a good job there.
And seriously, why worry about where you are placed anywhere when there are important things like CHOCOLATE to discuss?? Oh and cheesecake.
Oh, Mary, when you bring in cheesecake, it is like considering the nuclear option. Cheesecake is one of the reasons I married Mrs CS. Mmmm….cheesecake.
There are a few people waiting for the fall of T&S (I’m not suggesting Ben S. is one of them). I have some news for you: it’s not going to happen, at least for a long time. I know nothing would make some of you more happy, but you’re going to have to wait. And wait. And wait.
Yeah, Davis, I agree. It’s a class act. Not a perfect act, guys, but a classy one. Like you guys, as well. Class acts.
It’s the first place I came and found out I wasn’t alone in this Mormon world (well, I knew there were others, just not so many, and such eloquent, intelligent, brave young souls), so I am sentimental about good old Times and Seasons. You know, like Marta said (and brace yourselves, you’ve heard this before): “the nicest group of people to ever completely ignore me.”
“the nicest group of people to ever completely ignore me” … that’s a good one.
By the way, when I first saw this post in my RSS reader, I thought it was Snarkernacle and that Ben S. had given himself up as the Snarker. I was so surprised to find myself at M* when I clicked the link that I didn’t even bother to read the comments. Only now have I finally made my way back to see what all the hullaballoo is about.
Nooo!
Mendoozzaaaa!
CS Eric
That is a very good reason to marry someone
My favorite commentary on schadenfreude (sorry, Mr. Schopenhauer), is a song in the Tony-award winning musical, “Avenue Q”.
However, I do agree with Schopenhauer when he said that to feel envy is human, but to enjoy schadenfreude is evil. And he would know.
“Neid zu fühlen ist menschlich, Schadenfreude zu genießen teuflisch.” (I guess “teuflisch” could mean “satanic” or “evil” – depending on your translation – since “Der Teufel” is the German word for the Devil. Isn’t German fun?!).
But what an awesome name for a blog: “Schadenfreude”. Bet it’s already taken.
OK, I realize this isn’t a big deal. I don’t think it is anyway.
But MA is undeniably acting petty here.
So T&S doesn’t list you on their website. I fail to see why that matters in the first place.
Is MA objectively keeping track of the bloggernacle or not?
If MA is an objective source of information, then they ought to list Mormon-related blogs solely based on how much traffic those blogs get. It shouldn’t matter who is linking to whom. Heck, it shouldn’t even matter if Kaimi is openly insulting the MA permabloggers. You tell it like it is, whether people pay you to tell it like it is or not.
This shows a disappointing lack of integrity and maturity on MA’s part. Reminds me of high school.
Grow up guys.
MA is being petty? Hmmmmm….
Oh… so TRAFFIC is the important issue. I thought intelligent discussion was.
I don’t see why Kaimi (or anyone for that matter) is better or more special than anyone else. But getting all worked up because of PLACEMENT? Again, beware of pride boys.
D. Bell,
People who think T&S is going to fall are naïve. That’s like saying Wal-Mart will fall. T&S fills a specific niche.
#48 was me.
I need to apologize to two groups. To MA, because I overreacted with my hasty comment. To my co-bloggers, because I shouldn’t be talking publicly about internal blog matters.
I fired off a quick comment in the 10-minute break between sessions at a conference. It wasn’t meant to sound like it did, but that’s a risk when one is surfing the web on a cell phone and typing quickly.
Anyway, here are my quick thoughts, from the airport lobby, where I (finally!) have a wireless connection:
I don’t think that the box change is a particularly big deal — my biggest gripe was (and still is, I think) that it would be _perceived_ as a big deal, and that it would undo my own negotiations on the matter. I had spent time and effort, and was annoyed at feeling as if that had been undermined. But that’s a relatively minor annoyance. I certainly don’t hate anyone at MA, and I continue to think their site is a great service.
Re 13:
Try hanging out at a law faculty meeting some time, Ned.
Re 32:
Don’t forget that chocolate is best eaten with cheese.
Re 34:
You and me both, Kim. Perhaps they can contact Zazzle and make the suggestion.
Re 42:
Danithew, we all know that _you’re_ the snarker, so it’s no use pretending we don’t know this.
Re 45:
I feel terribly intimidated by Elisabeth’s use of a language I don’t understand. I call for BCC’s immediate removal from the Archipelago and from the internet as a whole. And for a return to blondness.
Re 2 and 46:
They said it, not me. But that doesn’t mean that I disagree.
Re 47:
Yo soy mejor porque yo hablo un idioma que otras personas no entiendan.
Oh I almost forgot, one quick question for Ronan:
Is it too late to nominate T&S for best small blog over at the Niblets?
(Rimshot).
Ok, well then I can say I am better because I have birthed three babies without a doctor LOL (this is said tongue in cheek. I am Canadian after all)
Kaimi,
I have a pretty good guess who the snarker is, and I doubt it’s danithew.
And you should know that Best Small Blog was split up into Best Other Group Blog and Best Solo Blog.
Sorry, Kaimi. That one’s sewn up. You can be Best Big Blog That’s Brown.
I DON’T WANT TO KNOW WHO THE SNARKER IS. STOP SPECULATING, AND IF YOU KNOW, SHUT UP ABOUT IT.
Thanks for your kind attention.
[deleted at commenter's request]
Ok, it is an east cost address. Interesting. Don’t tell me more.
Let’s just say it corresponds with my guess.
I wrote a whole long post about my a-ha moment about the importance of blogging and my new keyboard erased it. I can’t figure out the combination of buttons I push when that happens, but it’s maddening.
I forgot what I said. Anyway, I’m going to take this a bit more seriously in the future. If I can remember.
I just have this picture of Kaimi sitting in the airport, furiously typing away at his phone about which box they’re in. Surrounded by possible terrorists and going to DC to meet with the president or something.
How dare someone expect to enter the solemn assembly of Spanky’s He-Man Woman Haters Club without offering the “high sign,” and that above the fold! Next they’ll expect to have their pudding without eating their meat.
Luke 14:7-11
Mary,
“Traffic” may not be the only factor out there. But it’s most certainly a more important factor than: “what have you done for me lately?”
If MA wants me to regard them as an objective source of information, then they’d better start acting objectively. Their current explanation sounds more like something you’d hear in a high-school clique.
Seth
It’s all a matter of perspective. Looks to me more like business sense.
I’m all for blog-branded chocolates.
Yeah, except that the bloggernacle isn’t “business.” It’s a social community first.
Between businesspeople, this sort of behavior is expected. Between friends, it’s boorish.
An olive leaf, an explanation, a chance for feedback, a navel-gaze of epic proportions: we invite you to join a friendly discussion at Bloggernacle Times about the MA.
I would really, really like to think of something to say to both sides in this controversy that will totally offend everyone all around. Alas, I can’t.
Kaimi, you misspelled “entienden.”
Aaron B
Hmmm interesting perspective Seth. I don’t see what the big deal is anyway. It’s free advertising for T&S anyway. Why make such a big deal out of it? It seems to me that some people seem to expect preferential treatment and I don’t see that MA has done anything wrong in this regard.