Comments on: The church of male chauvinists http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:25:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bookslinger http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40399 Bookslinger Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:38:05 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40399 I knew a couple in the church in which the wife was the verbally abusive one towards her husband. At first, I thought she was "the bad guy". However, the full story proved to be more complicated. They were equally abusive towards each other, it was just that the husband could keep his mouth shut at church (and she couldn't), thereby making her look like the only bad guy in the picture. But back at home, he gave verbal abuse as good as he got it. They were locked into a pattern. And even when he didn't specifically provoke her to abuse in public, she was locked into a pattern of always speaking to him in an abusive manner. He could relax and let his claws retract, but she always had her claws out. The emotional poison in their marriage built up to the point where they finally divorced, and they both ended up being happier and calmer people. However, their son followed his mother's pattern more than his father's, and he grew into the habit of having his claws out more often than not. She spoke to him like she did to her husband, and then he started treating her like his father treated her. We seem to spend our childhood absorbing the patterns of our parents. And then the rest of our lives trying to overcome those patterns. President Monson gave a talk once at General Conference, saying that the patterns are actually pretty much set into place by the time a child is 7 years old. The Book of Mormon makes frequent mention of this in regards to the Lamanites and "the traditions of their fathers." And the Book of Mormon also states, many times, that the Lord is more merciful towards those who sin due to "the traditions of their fathers" than towards those who sin knowingly and willfully (ie, the Nephites). I knew a couple in the church in which the wife was the verbally abusive one towards her husband. At first, I thought she was “the bad guy”. However, the full story proved to be more complicated. They were equally abusive towards each other, it was just that the husband could keep his mouth shut at church (and she couldn’t), thereby making her look like the only bad guy in the picture. But back at home, he gave verbal abuse as good as he got it. They were locked into a pattern. And even when he didn’t specifically provoke her to abuse in public, she was locked into a pattern of always speaking to him in an abusive manner. He could relax and let his claws retract, but she always had her claws out.

The emotional poison in their marriage built up to the point where they finally divorced, and they both ended up being happier and calmer people.

However, their son followed his mother’s pattern more than his father’s, and he grew into the habit of having his claws out more often than not. She spoke to him like she did to her husband, and then he started treating her like his father treated her.

We seem to spend our childhood absorbing the patterns of our parents. And then the rest of our lives trying to overcome those patterns.

President Monson gave a talk once at General Conference, saying that the patterns are actually pretty much set into place by the time a child is 7 years old.

The Book of Mormon makes frequent mention of this in regards to the Lamanites and “the traditions of their fathers.” And the Book of Mormon also states, many times, that the Lord is more merciful towards those who sin due to “the traditions of their fathers” than towards those who sin knowingly and willfully (ie, the Nephites).

]]> By: Jack http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40378 Jack Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:21:40 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40378 Cool story, Geoff. I think nowadays the general feeling that men in the church come away with is: If you don't do good by your family there's gonna be hell to pay -- literally. That's as it should be. Cool story, Geoff. I think nowadays the general feeling that men in the church come away with is: If you don’t do good by your family there’s gonna be hell to pay — literally. That’s as it should be.

]]> By: Nick Literski http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40358 Nick Literski Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:46:51 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40358 Wonderful story, Geoff, of a stake president who did exactly the right thing, for exactly the right reasons! Thanks! Wonderful story, Geoff, of a stake president who did exactly the right thing, for exactly the right reasons! Thanks!

]]> By: JA Benson http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40346 JA Benson Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:05:14 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40346 I know. I just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I do have to add that the biggest jerk men, with a couple of exceptions since then (come to think of it they were BYU alumni sigh), I have ever run into were at BYU 25 or so years ago. I hope they all did some growing up and are no longer quite as jerky. Young men are often (but not always) jerks. I do not recall a lesson "how to treat men" in Relief Society with the broader exception of "respecting priesthood". I do know of some examples of women not treating their husbands with respect. A lesson in Relief Society would be justified. I know. I just don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea. I do have to add that the biggest jerk men, with a couple of exceptions since then (come to think of it they were BYU alumni sigh), I have ever run into were at BYU 25 or so years ago. I hope they all did some growing up and are no longer quite as jerky. Young men are often (but not always) jerks.

I do not recall a lesson “how to treat men” in Relief Society with the broader exception of “respecting priesthood”. I do know of some examples of women not treating their husbands with respect. A lesson in Relief Society would be justified.

]]> By: Geoff B. http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40343 Geoff B. Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:04:14 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40343 Joanna, I was trying to be a little ironic with that title. Perhaps too much so. :) Joanna, I was trying to be a little ironic with that title. Perhaps too much so. :)

]]> By: JA Benson http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40341 JA Benson Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:15:17 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40341 I don't think we are a church of male chauvinists, as much as (like any organization), we have our fair share of male chauvinists. I asked my boys what the topics at stake priesthood mtgs. were; and they listed p0rn and treating girls with respect as the top two topics. Despite the preaching from the pulpit it still happens in a few situations with teens and adults. These situations are probabaly caused by bad parenting, immaturity, p0rn, and mental illness. I don’t think we are a church of male chauvinists, as much as (like any organization), we have our fair share of male chauvinists.
I asked my boys what the topics at stake priesthood mtgs. were; and they listed p0rn and treating girls with respect as the top two topics. Despite the preaching from the pulpit it still happens in a few situations with teens and adults. These situations are probabaly caused by bad parenting, immaturity, p0rn, and mental illness.

]]> By: Ben Pratt http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40336 Ben Pratt Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:32:40 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40336 I salute your stake president, Geoff. Such demeaning behavior (that of the husband) is not okay, nor is it condoned in any way by LDS scripture or tradition. I salute your stake president, Geoff. Such demeaning behavior (that of the husband) is not okay, nor is it condoned in any way by LDS scripture or tradition.

]]> By: Kim Siever http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40334 Kim Siever Wed, 21 Oct 2009 02:39:29 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40334 So sad. I used to work for a man—a member of the church—who yelled at his wife and even smacked her once while I was there. So sad. I used to work for a man—a member of the church—who yelled at his wife and even smacked her once while I was there.

]]> By: Clark Goble http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40332 Clark Goble Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:49:07 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40332 I think there are men who buy into demeaning stereotypes of women. I've met far too many. I think they are the vast, vast minority in the Church. And let's be honest, the Brethren have been railing against this for decades. But some people for whatever reasons do this. In some cases it reflects some deeper issues - often in my experience the men don't have a lot of experience with women, didn't date much, and then don't know how to cope with some of the problems in their marriage or issues with their wive's health. (Sometimes hormones, sometimes depression, sometime deeper issues) Rather than reacting with charity in a Christlike way trying to improve their marriage they react in demeaning ways out of frustration, making things worse not to mention undermining their priesthood. Even beyond this class of people I think there are a lot of people who need to learn a lot more about their spouses. (And as Mark noted, this goes both ways at times: I think we've all seen men mistreated by their spouses as well — and there definitely is a double standard there at times) I think there are men who buy into demeaning stereotypes of women. I’ve met far too many. I think they are the vast, vast minority in the Church. And let’s be honest, the Brethren have been railing against this for decades. But some people for whatever reasons do this. In some cases it reflects some deeper issues – often in my experience the men don’t have a lot of experience with women, didn’t date much, and then don’t know how to cope with some of the problems in their marriage or issues with their wive’s health. (Sometimes hormones, sometimes depression, sometime deeper issues) Rather than reacting with charity in a Christlike way trying to improve their marriage they react in demeaning ways out of frustration, making things worse not to mention undermining their priesthood.

Even beyond this class of people I think there are a lot of people who need to learn a lot more about their spouses. (And as Mark noted, this goes both ways at times: I think we’ve all seen men mistreated by their spouses as well — and there definitely is a double standard there at times)

]]> By: Mark N. http://www.millennialstar.org/the-church-of-male-chauvinists/comment-page-1/#comment-40329 Mark N. Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:40:54 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/?p=3303#comment-40329 I wonder if the Relief Society ever offers the same lesson in reverse... I wonder if the Relief Society ever offers the same lesson in reverse…

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