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	<title>Comments on: Stunning ignorance&#8230;from a Princeton professor?</title>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30561</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 18:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30561</guid>
		<description>Even if she thought they were different Churches she&#039;s guilty of making it seem like they were not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if she thought they were different Churches she&#8217;s guilty of making it seem like they were not.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff B</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30555</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 13:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30555</guid>
		<description>Bookslinger, the same thought actually crossed my mind after I posted this, but I&#039;m pretty sure that she really did think they are the same church when she posted this.  Take a look:

&quot;Yeah, Yeah, we know he gave some big speech about this issue earlier in the campaign, but how does he respond to what those women with the long skirts and weird hairdos said on the Today Show this morning?

Would Romney have thrown the Thomas Monson under the bus and even more provocative, would Monson have tossed Mr. Romney there?

Come on Marc, you know that would have been great to witness!  Maybe a little black liberation theology would have looked tame next to the FLDS. 

By the way, I have special permission to tease about Mormonism. Although my mom left the Mormon church 40 years ago, she did graduate from BYU in 1964 and I even have a great,-great grandfather who was imprisoned for polygamy. But that is a story for another time.  For now it is fun to just imagine how nice it would be if Mitt were still in the race.&quot;

She is directly comparing President Monson to Jeremiah Wright, meaning that Romney (as supposed member of the FLDS) would have to defend President Monson as supposed leader of the FLDS in the same way that Obama (as member of his church) has had to defend Jeremiah Wright (as leader of his church).

Read the comments on the post -- she has done nothing to come on and say, &quot;oh, by the way, I know they are two different churches.&quot;  And most people are reading it the same way I am, which is to say that she really did think they were the same church.  Hopefully, she has read the comments and now realizes they are two different churches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bookslinger, the same thought actually crossed my mind after I posted this, but I&#8217;m pretty sure that she really did think they are the same church when she posted this.  Take a look:</p>
<p>&#8220;Yeah, Yeah, we know he gave some big speech about this issue earlier in the campaign, but how does he respond to what those women with the long skirts and weird hairdos said on the Today Show this morning?</p>
<p>Would Romney have thrown the Thomas Monson under the bus and even more provocative, would Monson have tossed Mr. Romney there?</p>
<p>Come on Marc, you know that would have been great to witness!  Maybe a little black liberation theology would have looked tame next to the FLDS. </p>
<p>By the way, I have special permission to tease about Mormonism. Although my mom left the Mormon church 40 years ago, she did graduate from BYU in 1964 and I even have a great,-great grandfather who was imprisoned for polygamy. But that is a story for another time.  For now it is fun to just imagine how nice it would be if Mitt were still in the race.&#8221;</p>
<p>She is directly comparing President Monson to Jeremiah Wright, meaning that Romney (as supposed member of the FLDS) would have to defend President Monson as supposed leader of the FLDS in the same way that Obama (as member of his church) has had to defend Jeremiah Wright (as leader of his church).</p>
<p>Read the comments on the post &#8212; she has done nothing to come on and say, &#8220;oh, by the way, I know they are two different churches.&#8221;  And most people are reading it the same way I am, which is to say that she really did think they were the same church.  Hopefully, she has read the comments and now realizes they are two different churches.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30553</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 02:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30553</guid>
		<description>Geoff B:

It&#039;s not clear to me that the professor is conflating FLDS and LDS.  She may be working off the historical connection, with the FLDS as an offshoot, and leaving the &lt;i&gt;historical&lt;/i&gt; connection unsaid instead of spelling it out.

Maybe she&#039;s assuming her readers already know that the FLDS and LDS are separate but historically connected.

I think you&#039;re reading her article/blog entry in the most unflattering light, as if her critics here are reading her article with a chip on their shoulder and looking for an offense.

Your assuming she&#039;s ignorant and making accusations, when it&#039;s possible that her only mistake is to not clarify what she believes is the connection, ie: being the same church versus two different but historically connected churches.

The line that gives it away, that she knows they are separate but somehow connected is this one: &quot;&lt;i&gt;... would be fielding calls all day to explain Mormonism, polygamy and the relationship of Romney’s faith to the cult compound in Texas. &lt;/i&gt;

Now, put that into context with Obama having to explain Wright, and I can see how you are &lt;i&gt;infering&lt;/i&gt; that she means Romney is as &lt;i&gt;closely&lt;/i&gt; connected to the FLDS as Obama is to Wright.

However, the similarity of closeness is not her point.  Her point is having to be on the defensive as Obama is.

Her following questions: &quot;Does Mr. Romney believe that 14 year-old girls should marry? Does Mr. Romney plan to take additional wives in order to fulfill the moral requirements of his religion? If not why has Mr. Romney stayed affiliated and raised his children in a church with whom he so vehemently disagrees? &quot;

She&#039;s probably giving examples of &lt;i&gt;unfair&lt;/i&gt; questions that the press would ask. She could be implying that the press&#039;s questions of Obama are as &lt;i&gt;unfair&lt;/i&gt; as those.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff B:</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not clear to me that the professor is conflating FLDS and LDS.  She may be working off the historical connection, with the FLDS as an offshoot, and leaving the <i>historical</i> connection unsaid instead of spelling it out.</p>
<p>Maybe she&#8217;s assuming her readers already know that the FLDS and LDS are separate but historically connected.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re reading her article/blog entry in the most unflattering light, as if her critics here are reading her article with a chip on their shoulder and looking for an offense.</p>
<p>Your assuming she&#8217;s ignorant and making accusations, when it&#8217;s possible that her only mistake is to not clarify what she believes is the connection, ie: being the same church versus two different but historically connected churches.</p>
<p>The line that gives it away, that she knows they are separate but somehow connected is this one: &#8220;<i>&#8230; would be fielding calls all day to explain Mormonism, polygamy and the relationship of Romney’s faith to the cult compound in Texas. </i></p>
<p>Now, put that into context with Obama having to explain Wright, and I can see how you are <i>infering</i> that she means Romney is as <i>closely</i> connected to the FLDS as Obama is to Wright.</p>
<p>However, the similarity of closeness is not her point.  Her point is having to be on the defensive as Obama is.</p>
<p>Her following questions: &#8220;Does Mr. Romney believe that 14 year-old girls should marry? Does Mr. Romney plan to take additional wives in order to fulfill the moral requirements of his religion? If not why has Mr. Romney stayed affiliated and raised his children in a church with whom he so vehemently disagrees? &#8221;</p>
<p>She&#8217;s probably giving examples of <i>unfair</i> questions that the press would ask. She could be implying that the press&#8217;s questions of Obama are as <i>unfair</i> as those.</p>
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		<title>By: Bull Moose</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30551</link>
		<dc:creator>Bull Moose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 00:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30551</guid>
		<description>Regarding any similarities between the current issue in Texas and David Koresh, I previously posted the following in the comments over on M&amp;A:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Those commenters trying to equate the FLDS investigations with the BATF raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco really need to lay off the conspiracy-kool-aid. The Branch Davidians were amassing an arsenal because David Koresh taught his followers that the end-times would be ushered in by their “war” with the United States Government. The BATF had gathered enough evidence to get a magistrate to approve a warrant to search Mount Carmel for illegal weapons. The Davidians were tipped off prior to the execution of the warrant, and Koresh’s “Mighty Men,” a paramilitary organization within his religion was armed and ready to fire on government officials lawfully carrying out their duty.The Great State of Texas was not involved in the raid (other than the TNG helicopters used as distraction), and there was no threat of removing families; just an investigation of illegal weapons held by a dangerous group of traitors, a charge that proved true in the opening minutes of the raid. David Koresh and Warren Jeffs are more like Charles Manson in philosophy than like Joseph Smith.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I&#039;m no expert but I&#039;ve have researched the situation from a sociology of crime perspective. My point in bringing this up, is that the continued vilification of the Federal Agents who were shot and killed while attempting to serve a valid warrant and the subsequent armed standoff by Koresh and his paramilitary group really rankles me. When we perpetuate the conspiracy myth about the deaths of the barricaded Branch Davidians, we embolden murderers like Timothy McVeigh to take on an &quot;overreaching&quot; government, and more innocent lives are stolen.  Responsibility for the deaths of the Branch Davidians is on David Koresh&#039;s head, not the FBI.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding any similarities between the current issue in Texas and David Koresh, I previously posted the following in the comments over on M&amp;A:</p>
<blockquote><p>Those commenters trying to equate the FLDS investigations with the BATF raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco really need to lay off the conspiracy-kool-aid. The Branch Davidians were amassing an arsenal because David Koresh taught his followers that the end-times would be ushered in by their “war” with the United States Government. The BATF had gathered enough evidence to get a magistrate to approve a warrant to search Mount Carmel for illegal weapons. The Davidians were tipped off prior to the execution of the warrant, and Koresh’s “Mighty Men,” a paramilitary organization within his religion was armed and ready to fire on government officials lawfully carrying out their duty.The Great State of Texas was not involved in the raid (other than the TNG helicopters used as distraction), and there was no threat of removing families; just an investigation of illegal weapons held by a dangerous group of traitors, a charge that proved true in the opening minutes of the raid. David Koresh and Warren Jeffs are more like Charles Manson in philosophy than like Joseph Smith.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m no expert but I&#8217;ve have researched the situation from a sociology of crime perspective. My point in bringing this up, is that the continued vilification of the Federal Agents who were shot and killed while attempting to serve a valid warrant and the subsequent armed standoff by Koresh and his paramilitary group really rankles me. When we perpetuate the conspiracy myth about the deaths of the barricaded Branch Davidians, we embolden murderers like Timothy McVeigh to take on an &#8220;overreaching&#8221; government, and more innocent lives are stolen.  Responsibility for the deaths of the Branch Davidians is on David Koresh&#8217;s head, not the FBI.</p>
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		<title>By: Bull Moose</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30550</link>
		<dc:creator>Bull Moose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 23:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30550</guid>
		<description>Muslihoon, I&#039;ve never read those verses in Jacob and applied them to post-Manisfesto polygamists before now. Blame it on intellectual laziness. It&#039;s tempting for me to declare that the Lord is answering the FLDS with a &quot;sore curse, even unto destruction&quot; through the Texas state officials, but I wouldn&#039;t be so presumptive. It is tempting though ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Muslihoon, I&#8217;ve never read those verses in Jacob and applied them to post-Manisfesto polygamists before now. Blame it on intellectual laziness. It&#8217;s tempting for me to declare that the Lord is answering the FLDS with a &#8220;sore curse, even unto destruction&#8221; through the Texas state officials, but I wouldn&#8217;t be so presumptive. It is tempting though &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Muslihoon</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30547</link>
		<dc:creator>Muslihoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 16:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30547</guid>
		<description>Another reason we might be under an obligation to end the perversities of the FLDS, else it will come to our condemnation: Jacob 2:31-33.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another reason we might be under an obligation to end the perversities of the FLDS, else it will come to our condemnation: <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/31-33#31" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Jacob 2:31&ndash;33">Jacob 2:31&ndash;33</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Muslihoon</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30546</link>
		<dc:creator>Muslihoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 16:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30546</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I am biased. I know of societies and systems -- in Pakistan -- where young girls are abused and preyed on while no one can do anything or no one does anything. Those who try to remedy the situation are shouted down, expelled, or otherwise delegitimized. Women have little to no choice in most areas. So it pains me greatly to see such things occuring in The Land of Opportunity, where such things should never be permitted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I am biased. I know of societies and systems &#8212; in Pakistan &#8212; where young girls are abused and preyed on while no one can do anything or no one does anything. Those who try to remedy the situation are shouted down, expelled, or otherwise delegitimized. Women have little to no choice in most areas. So it pains me greatly to see such things occuring in The Land of Opportunity, where such things should never be permitted.</p>
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		<title>By: Muslihoon</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30545</link>
		<dc:creator>Muslihoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 16:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30545</guid>
		<description>This to me is a very complicated issue. The FLDS, and other similar polygamous communities, perpetuate an atrocious system of sexual abuse, preying on young women. While we want the state to get involved, they can&#039;t. The FLDS is quite good at evading state action. It seems we&#039;re torn between permitting more and more young girls to have their persons and lives utterly violated and ruined while awaiting the state to find a way to take action, or to have the state take swift and decisive action using extraordinary means.

And while the example of Koresh is germane, it doesn&#039;t apply as well because Koresh did not establish a multi-generational system of systematic sexual abuse.

I really don&#039;t care about the whole polygamy thing. It&#039;s irrelevant. And from what I have read, it is abundantly clear that the US authorities don&#039;t care either. They were and are more concerned about abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This to me is a very complicated issue. The FLDS, and other similar polygamous communities, perpetuate an atrocious system of sexual abuse, preying on young women. While we want the state to get involved, they can&#8217;t. The FLDS is quite good at evading state action. It seems we&#8217;re torn between permitting more and more young girls to have their persons and lives utterly violated and ruined while awaiting the state to find a way to take action, or to have the state take swift and decisive action using extraordinary means.</p>
<p>And while the example of Koresh is germane, it doesn&#8217;t apply as well because Koresh did not establish a multi-generational system of systematic sexual abuse.</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t care about the whole polygamy thing. It&#8217;s irrelevant. And from what I have read, it is abundantly clear that the US authorities don&#8217;t care either. They were and are more concerned about abuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30542</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 01:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30542</guid>
		<description>Sam, my point is that we &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; have a stake in them.

BM, I was thinking of Donne when I wrote that. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, my point is that we <i>should</i> have a stake in them.</p>
<p>BM, I was thinking of Donne when I wrote that.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam B.</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/comment-page-1/#comment-30541</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/04/30/stunning-ignorancefrom-a-princeton-professor/#comment-30541</guid>
		<description>Clark,
I think the reason there isn&#039;t more condemnation of the FLDS is the fact that none of us have any stake in them.  We all have a stake in U.S. government, however.  My voice of condemnation of FLDS abuse isn&#039;t really going to do anything: the criminals at this point (in Texas, anyway) are inevitably going to be prosecuted (as, it appears, will innocent people).  But overreaching against minority groups seems more and more to be modus operandi, both of Texas and of the U.S. government; because I&#039;m invested in our constitutional liberties, it makes sense that I&#039;d raise my voice in condemnation of a government&#039;s overreach of such principles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clark,<br />
I think the reason there isn&#8217;t more condemnation of the FLDS is the fact that none of us have any stake in them.  We all have a stake in U.S. government, however.  My voice of condemnation of FLDS abuse isn&#8217;t really going to do anything: the criminals at this point (in Texas, anyway) are inevitably going to be prosecuted (as, it appears, will innocent people).  But overreaching against minority groups seems more and more to be modus operandi, both of Texas and of the U.S. government; because I&#8217;m invested in our constitutional liberties, it makes sense that I&#8217;d raise my voice in condemnation of a government&#8217;s overreach of such principles.</p>
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