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	<title>Comments on: Sin and Transgression</title>
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		<title>By: ML</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-46120</link>
		<dc:creator>ML</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 03:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Talmage says what he says. It would be unfair to attempt to spin his words (ala clinton - depends on what &quot;is&quot; means). The following article is also definitive, and clearly states how Eve was deceived.

Jess Christensen (an area seventy) gets it right:
 
&quot;Lucifer was also in the beginning. He “sought to destroy the agency of man, … [and being] the father of all lies” (Moses 4:3–4) entered the garden to deceive our first parents. He first talked with Adam, but Adam did not yield. Lucifer then tried “also to beguile Eve” (Moses 4:6). He questioned her: “Yea, hath God said—Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (Moses 4:7). Challenging one’s recollection of a past event can often create doubt. But Eve stood firm. Lucifer’s first stratagem failed.&quot;
“Ye shall not surely die,” protested Lucifer, directly contradicting the word of the Lord (Moses 4:10; see also D&amp;C 29:41–42). “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (Moses 4:11). Lucifer spoke a partial truth mixed with a falsehood. If Eve were to partake of the fruit, her eyes would indeed be opened “as gods” and she would begin to know good and evil; yet the notion that eating the fruit could immediately make Eve as the gods was a clever deception. The purpose of life can be fulfilled only when we have time to prepare to meet God and learn good and evil by our own experience (see Alma 12:22–26; D&amp;C 29:39).
At Lucifer’s suggestion, Eve began to notice that the forbidden fruit was good for food, or delicious, and pleasant to the eyes. Lucifer “knows well how to catch the eye and arouse the desire of the customer.” 4 Eve then chose to partake of the forbidden fruit. She subsequently encouraged Adam to partake (see Moses 4:12). Adam concluded that God’s command to remain with his wife (see Moses 4:18) was more important than His command to abstain from the fruit. Thus in the face of this enticement, “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).

Jess L. Christensen, “The Choice That Began Mortality,” Ensign, Jan 2002, 36

 

When the story is told properly, in sequence, then the inuendo of a courageous or wise choice goes away, or at least is placed where it belongs, in hindsight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talmage says what he says. It would be unfair to attempt to spin his words (ala clinton &#8211; depends on what &#8220;is&#8221; means). The following article is also definitive, and clearly states how Eve was deceived.</p>
<p>Jess Christensen (an area seventy) gets it right:</p>
<p>&#8220;Lucifer was also in the beginning. He “sought to destroy the agency of man, … [and being] the father of all lies” (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4/3-4#3" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 4:3&ndash;4">Moses 4:3&ndash;4</a>) entered the garden to deceive our first parents. He first talked with Adam, but Adam did not yield. Lucifer then tried “also to beguile Eve” (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4/6#6" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 4:6">Moses 4:6</a>). He questioned her: “Yea, hath God said—Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4/7#7" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 4:7">Moses 4:7</a>). Challenging one’s recollection of a past event can often create doubt. But Eve stood firm. Lucifer’s first stratagem failed.&#8221;<br />
“Ye shall not surely die,” protested Lucifer, directly contradicting the word of the Lord (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4/10#10" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 4:10">Moses 4:10</a>; see also <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/29/41-42#41" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: D&amp;C 29:41&ndash;42">D&amp;C 29:41&ndash;42</a>). “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4/11#11" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 4:11">Moses 4:11</a>). Lucifer spoke a partial truth mixed with a falsehood. If Eve were to partake of the fruit, her eyes would indeed be opened “as gods” and she would begin to know good and evil; yet the notion that eating the fruit could immediately make Eve as the gods was a clever deception. The purpose of life can be fulfilled only when we have time to prepare to meet God and learn good and evil by our own experience (see <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/12/22-26#22" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Alma 12:22&ndash;26">Alma 12:22&ndash;26</a>; <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/29/39#39" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: D&amp;C 29:39">D&amp;C 29:39</a>).<br />
At Lucifer’s suggestion, Eve began to notice that the forbidden fruit was good for food, or delicious, and pleasant to the eyes. Lucifer “knows well how to catch the eye and arouse the desire of the customer.” 4 Eve then chose to partake of the forbidden fruit. She subsequently encouraged Adam to partake (see <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4/12#12" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 4:12">Moses 4:12</a>). Adam concluded that God’s command to remain with his wife (see <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/4/18#18" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 4:18">Moses 4:18</a>) was more important than His command to abstain from the fruit. Thus in the face of this enticement, “Adam fell that men might be” (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/2/25#25" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: 2 Ne. 2:25">2 Ne. 2:25</a>).</p>
<p>Jess L. Christensen, “The Choice That Began Mortality,” Ensign, Jan 2002, 36</p>
<p>When the story is told properly, in sequence, then the inuendo of a courageous or wise choice goes away, or at least is placed where it belongs, in hindsight.</p>
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		<title>By: Shara</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-45694</link>
		<dc:creator>Shara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tim, thanks for the comment below. VERY interesting!
Thanks, Shara

Interesting tidbit. The first six days of the creation all begin and end. However, the seventh does not–at least not in the scriptures. The seventh day does not end in Genesis, Moses, nor in Abraham. What does this tell us? If resting was all that God did on the seventh day, why didn’t it then say, “and the evening and the morning were the seventh day”, as it did the other six days?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, thanks for the comment below. VERY interesting!<br />
Thanks, Shara</p>
<p>Interesting tidbit. The first six days of the creation all begin and end. However, the seventh does not–at least not in the scriptures. The seventh day does not end in Genesis, Moses, nor in Abraham. What does this tell us? If resting was all that God did on the seventh day, why didn’t it then say, “and the evening and the morning were the seventh day”, as it did the other six days?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Stillion</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-36863</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Stillion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 02:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It seems that the application of the laws (sin vs transgression) is not solely based on the nature of the commandment (i.e. word of wisdom was not law when revealed but now is).  It seems to have a great deal to do with covenants.  The Anti-Lehi Nephites had committed physical murder (which is morally wrong), yet they repented and received forgiveness of their sins.  They of course covenanted never to kill again, and they did not - even when &quot;kill&quot; actually meant &quot;defending their own life&quot;.

So it seems to me that we can safely say that there are things that are considered sins and transgressions (and many of these may be social rather than religious), but that covenants make it possible to shift activities from being a transgression to being a sin.  So, if we covenant not to speed, but we speed, it becomes a sin for us because we have broken our covenant not to speed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that the application of the laws (sin vs transgression) is not solely based on the nature of the commandment (i.e. word of wisdom was not law when revealed but now is).  It seems to have a great deal to do with covenants.  The Anti-Lehi Nephites had committed physical murder (which is morally wrong), yet they repented and received forgiveness of their sins.  They of course covenanted never to kill again, and they did not &#8211; even when &#8220;kill&#8221; actually meant &#8220;defending their own life&#8221;.</p>
<p>So it seems to me that we can safely say that there are things that are considered sins and transgressions (and many of these may be social rather than religious), but that covenants make it possible to shift activities from being a transgression to being a sin.  So, if we covenant not to speed, but we speed, it becomes a sin for us because we have broken our covenant not to speed.</p>
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		<title>By: ash</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-35502</link>
		<dc:creator>ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-4646&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@SamP [Visitor] &lt;/a&gt; 
that is what Joseph Feilding Smith teaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-4646" rel="nofollow">@SamP [Visitor] </a><br />
that is what Joseph Feilding Smith teaches.</p>
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		<title>By: hasman [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-4647</link>
		<dc:creator>hasman [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>why do you want to shoot holes in a comment founded in the bible. maybe you need to go read Genisis again. If you are suggesting that God should have forced sin into the world youre up in the night. sounds like this satterfield guy has it right on.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why do you want to shoot holes in a comment founded in the bible. maybe you need to go read Genisis again. If you are suggesting that God should have forced sin into the world youre up in the night. sounds like this satterfield guy has it right on.</p>
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		<title>By: SamP [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-4646</link>
		<dc:creator>SamP [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 06:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Can anyone shoot holes in this theory by Bruce Satterfield (instructor at BYU-I)? &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;The reason the fruit was forbidden was a matter of individual responsibility. If God would have commanded Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit, then God would have been responsible for their fall and therefore would not have been in a position to save His posterity. The Fall must come by man&#039;s agency rather than God imposing fallen conditions upon his children. When Adam and Eve chose to eat the fruit by their own volition, God was free to implement a plan that would help them overcome the consequences of the Fall.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
and &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;Difference Between Adam&#039;s Fall and Individual Sins&lt;br /&gt;
Adam was taught that the atonement would be made effective for each person through the exercise of faith, repentance, and reception of the Holy Ghost (Moses 5:8; 6:51-52). Adam was confused. The only way to initiate mortality was by eating the forbidden fruit. Why must there be an atonement made for something that he was supposed to do? So he asked, &quot;Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? (Moses 6:53) &lt;br /&gt;
Atonement for Adam&#039;s Fall&lt;br /&gt;
In response the Lord first said: &quot;Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden&quot; (Moses 6:51-53). Adam and Eve had acted appropriately in the garden by eating the fruit thus opening the way for God&#039;s children to come to mortality. However, eating the fruit brought upon Adam, Eve, and all mankind, mortal and eternal consequences. An atonement must be made in order to free man from these consequences. &quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
They seem plausible to me, but no other authority I&#039;ve heard or read seems to say these things. Are they all dense, or is he just mistaken?&lt;br /&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can anyone shoot holes in this theory by Bruce Satterfield (instructor at BYU-I)? </p>
<p>&#8220;The reason the fruit was forbidden was a matter of individual responsibility. If God would have commanded Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit, then God would have been responsible for their fall and therefore would not have been in a position to save His posterity. The Fall must come by man&#8217;s agency rather than God imposing fallen conditions upon his children. When Adam and Eve chose to eat the fruit by their own volition, God was free to implement a plan that would help them overcome the consequences of the Fall.&#8221;</p>
<p>and </p>
<p>&#8220;Difference Between Adam&#8217;s Fall and Individual Sins<br />
Adam was taught that the atonement would be made effective for each person through the exercise of faith, repentance, and reception of the Holy Ghost (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/5/8#8" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 5:8">Moses 5:8</a>; 6:51-52). Adam was confused. The only way to initiate mortality was by eating the forbidden fruit. Why must there be an atonement made for something that he was supposed to do? So he asked, &#8220;Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/6/53#53" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 6:53">Moses 6:53</a>) <br />
Atonement for Adam&#8217;s Fall<br />
In response the Lord first said: &#8220;Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden&#8221; (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/6/51-53#51" title="LDS Scriptures Internet Edition: Moses 6:51&ndash;53">Moses 6:51&ndash;53</a>). Adam and Eve had acted appropriately in the garden by eating the fruit thus opening the way for God&#8217;s children to come to mortality. However, eating the fruit brought upon Adam, Eve, and all mankind, mortal and eternal consequences. An atonement must be made in order to free man from these consequences. &#8220;</p>
<p>They seem plausible to me, but no other authority I&#8217;ve heard or read seems to say these things. Are they all dense, or is he just mistaken?</p>
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		<title>By: SamP [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-4645</link>
		<dc:creator>SamP [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2006 11:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=233#comment-4645</guid>
		<description>did it ever occur to anybody that maybe we are not able to comprehend all the details, so we&#039;ve just been given important highlights? Because it seems to me that there&#039;s way more that the Lord hasn&#039;t revealed. Maybe it&#039;s like a highlight reel on SportsCenter--giving highlights, but not the whole story. And again for two reasons: one-to test our faith and 2-we cannot comprehend the whole truth. What happens when you experience information overload? You tune out. By giving us minimal information, the Lord has sucked us in.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>did it ever occur to anybody that maybe we are not able to comprehend all the details, so we&#8217;ve just been given important highlights? Because it seems to me that there&#8217;s way more that the Lord hasn&#8217;t revealed. Maybe it&#8217;s like a highlight reel on SportsCenter&#8211;giving highlights, but not the whole story. And again for two reasons: one-to test our faith and 2-we cannot comprehend the whole truth. What happens when you experience information overload? You tune out. By giving us minimal information, the Lord has sucked us in.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Fairbanks [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-4644</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Fairbanks [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 06:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If Adam and Even didn&#039;t sin, why were cheribim and a flaming sword placed to guard the way of the tree of life lest Adam and Eve partake and &lt;b&gt;live forever in their &lt;i&gt;sins&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Adam and Even didn&#8217;t sin, why were cheribim and a flaming sword placed to guard the way of the tree of life lest Adam and Eve partake and <b>live forever in their <i>sins</i></b>?</p>
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		<title>By: Jack [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-4643</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=233#comment-4643</guid>
		<description>We learn--from other sources even more peculiar to mormons than modern scripture--that somehow Adam knew that by his partaking of the forbidden fruit &quot;man might be.&quot; According to the plot in the allegory, Adam decides to eat the fruit when he discovers that he and Eve will be separated if he doesn&#039;t and, therefore, unable to have seed. Were did he get that wisdom? It could be that he was enlightened as Eve explained the situation to him. Yet, still, one has to wonder at his ability to grasp the paradox while lacking the abilty to comprehend good and evil. Somehow he did have the wisdom to comprehend the *greater* good--which implies that Eve may have possessed that same intuition.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We learn&#8211;from other sources even more peculiar to mormons than modern scripture&#8211;that somehow Adam knew that by his partaking of the forbidden fruit &#8220;man might be.&#8221; According to the plot in the allegory, Adam decides to eat the fruit when he discovers that he and Eve will be separated if he doesn&#8217;t and, therefore, unable to have seed. Were did he get that wisdom? It could be that he was enlightened as Eve explained the situation to him. Yet, still, one has to wonder at his ability to grasp the paradox while lacking the abilty to comprehend good and evil. Somehow he did have the wisdom to comprehend the *greater* good&#8211;which implies that Eve may have possessed that same intuition.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Jacob [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/sin-and-transgression/comment-page-3/#comment-4642</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Jacob [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Mom.  Can I borrow the car?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mom.  Can I borrow the car?</p>
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