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	<title>Comments on: Mormons and the Trinity</title>
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		<title>By: More Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-30118</link>
		<dc:creator>More Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-30118</guid>
		<description>[...] blog named Heart Issues for LDS has mentioned my recent posts on the Trinity (two at M* here and  and one here at MM) It’s an interesting blog. It’s written by a Baptism pastor [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blog named Heart Issues for LDS has mentioned my recent posts on the Trinity (two at M* here and  and one here at MM) It’s an interesting blog. It’s written by a Baptism pastor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-30109</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-30109</guid>
		<description>To add, if you haven&#039;t, you might wish to check out my more technical blog post on where there may be some remaining &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/03/07/problems-with-mormons-and-the-trinity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;problems between the Trinity and Mormons&lt;/a&gt;.

Also if you didn&#039;t read it the second part of this post is on the example of &lt;a href=&quot;http://millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Orson Pratt&#039;s theology&lt;/a&gt; which ends up thinking through a way of reconciling Mormon theology with something very much like the Trinity only with this pretty weird materialistic ontology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add, if you haven&#8217;t, you might wish to check out my more technical blog post on where there may be some remaining <a href="http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2008/03/07/problems-with-mormons-and-the-trinity/" rel="nofollow">problems between the Trinity and Mormons</a>.</p>
<p>Also if you didn&#8217;t read it the second part of this post is on the example of <a href="http://millennialstar.org/2008/02/27/trinitarian-mormons-orson-pratt/" rel="nofollow">Orson Pratt&#8217;s theology</a> which ends up thinking through a way of reconciling Mormon theology with something very much like the Trinity only with this pretty weird materialistic ontology.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-30108</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-30108</guid>
		<description>Jimmy, the problem is that Elder Holland isn&#039;t clear what he is critiquing.  As I read him saying three persons &lt;i&gt;combined&lt;/i&gt; in one substance he appears to be presenting a modalistic view and not the actual doctrine of the Trinity which is much more complex.  Further substance in the doctrine of the Trinity (meaning the &lt;i&gt;ousia&lt;/i&gt; rather than the &lt;i&gt;hypostasis&lt;/i&gt;) doesn&#039;t mean substance as we tend to use the language.

Certainly the Trinity &lt;i&gt;as most Mormons understand it&lt;/i&gt; is false doctrine.  But that&#039;s because it is commonly misunderstood.  So what is attacked is almost always a strawman.  The equating of Trinity with modalism is pretty consistent in Mormon history going back to Joseph Smith.  So it is fairly easy to understand why it is attacked.

The second problem is that the Trinity is frankly difficult to understand.  Even a lot of folks who have been to seminaries often present it as modalism.  Until you really delve into the philosophical background of the doctrine you can&#039;t quite get your mind wrapped around it.

Further let me one again repeat that I&#039;m &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; saying Mormons buy into the Trinity as understood in traditional Christianity.  That&#039;s because all the &lt;i&gt;context&lt;/i&gt; to the formal statements of doctrine add in things we definitely disagree with.  (Such as the doctrine of &lt;i&gt;creation ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt;)  So how a mainstream Christian theologian would interpret the doctrine as applied would be narrower than what I&#039;m asserting here.  I&#039;m simply pointing out that the doctrine proper isn&#039;t as incompatible with LDS thought as it first appears.  And I the doctrine &lt;i&gt;proper&lt;/i&gt; (i.e. the creedal statements) are fully compatible with LDS doctrine if not necessarily even systematic theological interpretation of Mormon doctrine.  (As I said, McConkie definitely adopts a nominalistic view of God&#039;s unity)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jimmy, the problem is that Elder Holland isn&#8217;t clear what he is critiquing.  As I read him saying three persons <i>combined</i> in one substance he appears to be presenting a modalistic view and not the actual doctrine of the Trinity which is much more complex.  Further substance in the doctrine of the Trinity (meaning the <i>ousia</i> rather than the <i>hypostasis</i>) doesn&#8217;t mean substance as we tend to use the language.</p>
<p>Certainly the Trinity <i>as most Mormons understand it</i> is false doctrine.  But that&#8217;s because it is commonly misunderstood.  So what is attacked is almost always a strawman.  The equating of Trinity with modalism is pretty consistent in Mormon history going back to Joseph Smith.  So it is fairly easy to understand why it is attacked.</p>
<p>The second problem is that the Trinity is frankly difficult to understand.  Even a lot of folks who have been to seminaries often present it as modalism.  Until you really delve into the philosophical background of the doctrine you can&#8217;t quite get your mind wrapped around it.</p>
<p>Further let me one again repeat that I&#8217;m <i>not</i> saying Mormons buy into the Trinity as understood in traditional Christianity.  That&#8217;s because all the <i>context</i> to the formal statements of doctrine add in things we definitely disagree with.  (Such as the doctrine of <i>creation ex nihilo</i>)  So how a mainstream Christian theologian would interpret the doctrine as applied would be narrower than what I&#8217;m asserting here.  I&#8217;m simply pointing out that the doctrine proper isn&#8217;t as incompatible with LDS thought as it first appears.  And I the doctrine <i>proper</i> (i.e. the creedal statements) are fully compatible with LDS doctrine if not necessarily even systematic theological interpretation of Mormon doctrine.  (As I said, McConkie definitely adopts a nominalistic view of God&#8217;s unity)</p>
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		<title>By: jimmy</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-30056</link>
		<dc:creator>jimmy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 05:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-30056</guid>
		<description>Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.
-Elder Jeffrey R Holland

A modern day Apostle of the Lord who is a special witness of Christ has rebuked the doctrine of the trinity and says it is false doctrine.  Elder Bruce R McConkie says in regard to this subject, &quot;It is my pattern and custom to simply teach and testify. I do not debate and I do not argue.  If someone wants to contend to the contrary, he is just as welcome as the day is long to do so.  But let us understand this.  When we deal with God&#039;s laws, when we get into the realm of spiritual things, we are dealing with the things that save souls, and at our peril we are obligated to find the truth.&quot;

The trinity is false doctrine.  We do not receive that doctrine into our hearts because it does not save.  Be warned, when we receive such a stern warning and declaration of the truth from a special witness of Christ, and then we ignore that warning, then we are apostatizing from the true Church of God and sacrifice the rights, privileges and blessings so involved and given for Eternal exaltation.  There is no reason to ponder that heresy, that blasphemy against God and that untrue, false doctrine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.<br />
-Elder Jeffrey R Holland</p>
<p>A modern day Apostle of the Lord who is a special witness of Christ has rebuked the doctrine of the trinity and says it is false doctrine.  Elder Bruce R McConkie says in regard to this subject, &quot;It is my pattern and custom to simply teach and testify. I do not debate and I do not argue.  If someone wants to contend to the contrary, he is just as welcome as the day is long to do so.  But let us understand this.  When we deal with God&#8217;s laws, when we get into the realm of spiritual things, we are dealing with the things that save souls, and at our peril we are obligated to find the truth.&quot;</p>
<p>The trinity is false doctrine.  We do not receive that doctrine into our hearts because it does not save.  Be warned, when we receive such a stern warning and declaration of the truth from a special witness of Christ, and then we ignore that warning, then we are apostatizing from the true Church of God and sacrifice the rights, privileges and blessings so involved and given for Eternal exaltation.  There is no reason to ponder that heresy, that blasphemy against God and that untrue, false doctrine.</p>
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		<title>By: Problems with Mormons and the Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-30031</link>
		<dc:creator>Problems with Mormons and the Trinity : Mormon Metaphysics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-30031</guid>
		<description>[...] at Millennial Star last week. I had two posts (here and here) on how the mainstream doctrine of the Trinity and Mormon theology are compatible. They [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at Millennial Star last week. I had two posts (here and here) on how the mainstream doctrine of the Trinity and Mormon theology are compatible. They [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-29867</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-29867</guid>
		<description>Eric, the question is whether the issue of the embodiment of the Father is part of the doctrine of the Trinity proper.

There are two places where I think my claims about the Trinity may fall flat and I&#039;ll address them in an other post.  (The next one will be about Pratt)  

To briefly summarize though there is the issue that the persons in the Trinity shouldn&#039;t be understood like a human person.  (See &lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/2h4z6o&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on person&lt;/a&gt; for more info)  My answer is complex but I think Mormons end up expanding the notion of person for everyone due to our theology of pre-existence.  

The second is over the relations of the entities of the Trinity.  That is the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds whereas the Son is begotten and the Holy Ghost proceeds.  I think that while some Mormons will have trouble here others won&#039;t.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, the question is whether the issue of the embodiment of the Father is part of the doctrine of the Trinity proper.</p>
<p>There are two places where I think my claims about the Trinity may fall flat and I&#8217;ll address them in an other post.  (The next one will be about Pratt)  </p>
<p>To briefly summarize though there is the issue that the persons in the Trinity shouldn&#8217;t be understood like a human person.  (See <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2h4z6o" rel="nofollow">the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on person</a> for more info)  My answer is complex but I think Mormons end up expanding the notion of person for everyone due to our theology of pre-existence.  </p>
<p>The second is over the relations of the entities of the Trinity.  That is the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds whereas the Son is begotten and the Holy Ghost proceeds.  I think that while some Mormons will have trouble here others won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-29865</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-29865</guid>
		<description>Something alluded to in the original post is that it&#039;s quite common for many non-LDS Christians to have a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. I don&#039;t cease to be amazed at how many of them, when asked what the Trinity is, describe it in modalistic terms. If we&#039;re heretics, then so are many non-Mormons!

There are definitely some strong similarities between social trinitarianism and the LDS view. The key differences, in my view, then are over the corporeal nature of the Father and areas that get into LDS speculation, such as the origins of the Father (e.g., did He have a Father) and whether there was a Heavenly Mother needed before Jesus could become Who He is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something alluded to in the original post is that it&#8217;s quite common for many non-LDS Christians to have a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. I don&#8217;t cease to be amazed at how many of them, when asked what the Trinity is, describe it in modalistic terms. If we&#8217;re heretics, then so are many non-Mormons!</p>
<p>There are definitely some strong similarities between social trinitarianism and the LDS view. The key differences, in my view, then are over the corporeal nature of the Father and areas that get into LDS speculation, such as the origins of the Father (e.g., did He have a Father) and whether there was a Heavenly Mother needed before Jesus could become Who He is.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-29864</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-29864</guid>
		<description>The next article of faith in our church constitution that I would like to talk about on HI4LDS is the subject of the Triune God.  I will link your short post, Clark.

This is intriguing.  Are there other similar LDS links to what you are saying here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The next article of faith in our church constitution that I would like to talk about on HI4LDS is the subject of the Triune God.  I will link your short post, Clark.</p>
<p>This is intriguing.  Are there other similar LDS links to what you are saying here?</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-29860</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-29860</guid>
		<description>Oh, regarding Calvin I&#039;m just not well enough read on him to know the intricacies of his thought.  I feel confident in saying he asserted &lt;i&gt;creation ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt;.  I&#039;m very sure he adopted a thoroughgoing unit of the Godhead though too.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Calvin.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; Calvin&#039;s main statement about the Trinity.

One difference we might see between Mormons and mainstream Christian theologies is that Mormons primarily focus and are concerned about the persons.  Outside of a few examples (such as Pratt) Mormons really haven&#039;t concerned themselves with the question of the unity of God.  Contrast this with most theological writings over the centuries in mainstream Christianity and there the &lt;i&gt;ousia&lt;/i&gt; of God gets considerable focus.  The persons far less focus (outside of debates regarding Christology)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, regarding Calvin I&#8217;m just not well enough read on him to know the intricacies of his thought.  I feel confident in saying he asserted <i>creation ex nihilo</i>.  I&#8217;m very sure he adopted a thoroughgoing unit of the Godhead though too.  <a href="http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Calvin.html" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> Calvin&#8217;s main statement about the Trinity.</p>
<p>One difference we might see between Mormons and mainstream Christian theologies is that Mormons primarily focus and are concerned about the persons.  Outside of a few examples (such as Pratt) Mormons really haven&#8217;t concerned themselves with the question of the unity of God.  Contrast this with most theological writings over the centuries in mainstream Christianity and there the <i>ousia</i> of God gets considerable focus.  The persons far less focus (outside of debates regarding Christology)</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/mormons-and-the-trinity/comment-page-1/#comment-29858</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/02/25/mormons-and-the-trinity/#comment-29858</guid>
		<description>Brian I agree completely that the main difference between Mormons and Christians of the more orthodox persuasion is &lt;i&gt;creation ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt; and the embodiment of the Father.  My belief is that both sides focus, incorrectly, on the Trinity, whereas our differences lay elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian I agree completely that the main difference between Mormons and Christians of the more orthodox persuasion is <i>creation ex nihilo</i> and the embodiment of the Father.  My belief is that both sides focus, incorrectly, on the Trinity, whereas our differences lay elsewhere.</p>
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