Friday Morning Question: Scouting in 2006
Posted on June 2nd, 2006 by Kevin Burtt (The Baron)
In the vein of Matt’s occasional Monday Morning Question series (and in case people need a break from talking about you-know-what)
My question: What place does Scouting have within the modern day LDS Church?
This is not meant to be a pro- or anti- Scouting argument, only asking the question of whether Scouting still plays a useful purpose in the modern day Church circa 2006. I was a Scout until I was about 14 (before my baptism–I made it to Star) and have had my share of good and bad experiences with it.
Scouting “builds values”, as they say…but so does the standard Young Men’s curriculum, and in a more focused and gospel-centered way also. Take out the common gospel principles from Scouting that YM already covers and what are you left with–knot tying? On the other hand, perhaps Scouting presents those principles within a framework of interesting activities that are more likely to hold the attention of teenage boys, versus just more Sunday School-style lessons on standards and righteousness based on the scriptures. Participation in Scouting in my day petered out significantly at age 14–does modern-day Scouting have anything to offer older young men closer to 18, as originally designed?
I note that the scope of merit badges has changed somewhat since my time in scouting–now with a greater variety of modern-day occupational stuff like Computers and Graphic Arts, a useful step above the Archery and Basket Weaving merit badges in my day… Still, is Scouting still useful from a ‘preparing marketable skills for college and adulthood’ standpoint? There is still a heavy emphasis on outdoor skills, which may have been more valuable in 1908 when outdoor activity was more prevalent, but in 2006? Many Scouting skills nowadays seem only to be useful on…Scouting trips.
I’d like to hear what everyone thinks about the place and purpose of Scouting in 2006. A valuable part of the Church growth process for young men? Or a holdover from the past that has started to lose its relevance to 21st century life?
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95 Responses to “Friday Morning Question: Scouting in 2006”
Kevin,
I’ve been involved in the Young Mens’ program and scouting for over four years in our ward. I was involved in the scouting movement in my youth as well (I only made it to Life, and very much regret not making the effort to achieve Eagle). I have absolutely no doubt in my mind Scouting can play a significant role in the lives of the Church’s young men. I also believe the Church feels the same way. Please see here and here. There are circumstances where adult leaders are untrained and scouting is less than successful; however, like the Duty to God Program (some of which does overlap with scouting) it is a tool. If sharpened, and used by a properly trained set of leaders, it can help mold extraordinary young men, and leaders as well. I think scouting is even more relevant today than at any time previous. I don’t see the Church dropping it as a tool in its Young Men’s program anytime soon.
I think it’s noteworthy that the Church has official Church callings for the scouts (Scout Master, asst. Scout Master, etc). It seems that, based on this and the links Guy provides in comment #1, that scouting is an essential and fundamental part of our youth program. I was never in the Scouts when I was a youth, but my boy(s) will be.
I’ve had experience in the church in Latin America, Asia, and Eorope, besides in the U.S. I am not aware of scouting being part of the church outside of North America. To what extent is this a concern? My assumption is that the church wants to accomodate local needs, but also wants to make sure the church looks the same throughout the world.
My feeling is that there are now so many restrictions on scouting that you are better off just going camping with the neighbors independent of the church. I completely understand where the church is coming from of course. And typically I favor most of the restrictions in all auxiliaries. (Although the recent pronouncement banning bubbles in church for nursery strikes me as a bit odd)
My problem with scouts is that it does feel increasingly out of step with things. Honestly, after being called a couple of years ago into scouts I had to ask myself if I’d have wanted to participate as a kid. I don’t think I would have.
Kevin,
Life has changed dramatically in the century since Scouting’s founding, and although it has made token attempts to keep up with that change, for the most part Scouting is still rooted in a past that is increasingly alien to boys and their parents.
The whole military foundation of Scouting seems at odds to the mission of the Prince of Peace and his church. My experience with my sons and other young men has been that the military style badges and ranks hold much less fascination and esteem for them and for their parents than they did in the past.
The trailblazing, living-off-the-land outdoorsmanship is still rooted in a rural agrarian lifestyle that hardly exists anymore.
And the POV of scouting is still based on a small town early 20th century model. I recently helped my son prepare an emergency response kit for one of his merit badges. This was not a 72 hour kit in case of emergency, this was a kit for him to use in case our troop is deployed to help out in an emergency. He had to have rope, hard hat, first aid, etc. Anyone with a 12 year old son can only laugh at the thought of those squirrelly kids being drafted in an emergency, but what made me smile was this Ozzie and Harriett image of the local scout troop actually being part of a modern city’s emergency response plan.
It just seems to be a program built on a fading paradigm. It’s time to re-assess, although I have no faith that will happen.
I’m a convert, and was never a Scout growing up. I’ve 4 sons. I wish I had been a Scout growing up, because I think it’s a blast now (I was YM Prez for a while), and my oldest son seems to enjoy it.
That being said, I think the point made by Guy about it being a tool is correct. As with any of the Church’s progams, when done well, they enhance life. I’ve seen as many bad GD teachers or Primary workers as I have bad Scouting leaders.
My 2¢
I think scouting is invaluable. My husband has been a scout leader, and a good one, for most of our married life. He takes a lot of time with those boys, teaching them valuable skills and giving them a good example. Some of them don’t have a dad in the home, some do, but they all benefit.
That being said, I think the BSA takes advantage of the church. The financial stuff really bothers me. We pay a donation to friends of scouting, we pay for every single little thing we get from scouting, then they charge a huge amount to use their facilities. I think somebody’s getting rich off it. I do.
I think scouting’s time has passed — at least I think it has in the places and wards where I’ve lived. And I say that even though I currently live in a ward that has the best organized scouting program I’ve ever seen, and one that produces more Eagle scouts and the highest percentage of participants-to-Eagles than any place I’ve ever seen, as well. But so far as I can tell, my current ward is successful at that because it’s a successful, relatively well-heeled ward, populated by people who work hard at almost everything they do, and when they’re assigned to lead a scouting program, they do the same quality work they when they are assigned to stack chairs after services.
When the Church went into its mode preparing to ditch scouting a couple of years ago while the Supreme Court was considering imposing public-style non-discrimination rules on scouting, it seemed pretty clear to me that the Church didn’t need scouting to accomplish its objectives with the YM.
What place does Scouting have within the modern day LDS Church?
I am torn on this question. The Scouting program taught me a love for flag and country, and that love of God was closely associated within that framework. Could I have gained that outside the Scouting program? I’m sure I could have. But since the program is there, why not use it?
On the other hand, I agree that Scouting works on an outdated paradigm. But this also seems to fit well with the Church as a whole, which is slow to change.
does modern-day Scouting have anything to offer older young men closer to 18, as originally designed?
In Canada Scouts is 12-14, and then you move into Ventures, which goes to 17 or 18. Not sure what the corresponding program in the States is called. I achieved my Queens Venture award, the highest award in Canadian Scouting. I remember putting it as an achievment on some of my first job applications to impress my potential employers. It didn’t. What a dork I was! LOL!
My feeling is that there are now so many restrictions on scouting that you are better off just going camping with the neighbors independent of the church
This is very true. I know this having recently been called into Young Mens, and by default becoming the Scout leader. The amount of planning and waiver forms required to get an activity planned is insane. Plus having to go to the Scout Group committee meeting to have every aspect of your efforts scrutinized is painful. YM activities require no advance sign off. in Scouts, if we want to watch a movie as a Scout activity we have to have the movie approved by the committee, and if it is going to be watched at someones house rather than at the Church, waiver forms have to be signed two weeks prior to the activity night. Don’t even get me started on what it takes to get a camp organized.
My other issue with Scouting is the amount of $ spent on the boys vs. the YW program.
But in keeping with the original question of this post, I guess my answer is 50/50 that the program has a place in the modern Church. I think with some tweeking and updating I could be persuaded to be 70/30 in favour of continuing on with it.
KLC #5
Scouting was founded by a man with a military background. It was not founded, and is not today a military organization in any way shape or form. For information on its founders see here and here.
Please help me understand how scouting’s mission and focus which teaches young men the following is somehow antithetical to the gospel of the Prince of Peace:
Scout Law
TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.
OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
Scout Oath (or Promise)
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
Scout Motto
Be Prepared
Scout Slogan
Do a Good Turn Daily
These are timeless values, or in other words, they, praiseworthy, lovely and of good report. We should seek after these things.
Greenfrog: If these values, which are the bedrock of scouting, have passed with time, then so has the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The point, of course, is not that Scouting principles contradict gospel principles, but that they’re redundant…
The Young Men’s curriculum already teaches young men to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful (etc) and to do a good turn daily. You can find direct scripture references for every single point in the Scout Law. The question is what else does Scouting add to a young man’s development that wouldn’t be there if Scouting was discarded…
I attend the BYU Chinese Ward–which, like wards not in the US as noted, does not have an organized Scouting program. And, yet, our young men do not appear to any less founded in gospel principles despite not being Boy Scout ‘trained’. Our stake has lightly encouraged us to participate in local Scouting events, if only for additional activities for young men to participate in, but our current YM program is not lacking in developing any of these values in our Chinese young men. When I was in the YM presidency we had many a discussion about how far to include traditional scouting in our ward YM program to be consistent with a ‘normal’ US ward. We couldn’t really come up with any definitive advantages towards having Scouting versus normal YM Church stuff…hence my question.
Kevin,
This was the contradiction to which I was referring. The whole point of the scouting program in conjunction with the YM’s program is that it is supposed to be the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood. Organized properly, with trained leaders, who believe in the program can have very positive and dramatic results. Otherwise the “brethren” would not continue to support it to the degree they do.
Can you have a YM program without scouting? No doubt! Is it as good a program as one coupled with a properly organized and run scouting program, I think not–but that’s just my opinion. The scouting and venturing program allow for a myriad of activities and learning experiences not necessarily encompassed just within the YM’s program standing alone. That’s why they joined at the hip so to speak.
As far as redundancy . . . hearken back to the temple ceremony.
Ok, let’s clarify this for everyone, scouting is the acitivity arm of the YMs program of the church, done! If you’re not following this as the program, then you are out of touch with what the church if trying to promote here and that are good values in the form of a structured activities. If there is a direct difference in your minds about ‘normal YMs stuff’ and Scouting, then why is that? Why does Scouting have to consititute things that are not normal, when in fact perhaps the things that Scouting does should becomes the norm or the ‘regular YMs activities’. When GAs get up in front of priesthood leaders at local training meetings and make very strong statements that this is the activity arm of the church UFN, then that’s good enough for me to get on with what they are talking about.
That being said, the church has introduced the Duty to God program for obvious reasons that UFN scouting is the activity arm, but when that ends, the church needs a program to follow for YM in terms of growth and recognition and DTG is it! There are many reasons why the church will get out of Scouting at some point, but it aint’ today nor tomorrow nor the next weekly activity, but it is coming and when it does, the church will be ready of course!!
For those of you in scouting, your best bet is to try and integrate scouting activities with DTG and see where it gets you as yu will definitely kill 2 birds with 1 stone and at the same time you will have YM that know how to have great activities and be spiritually motivated at the same time. My son will complete the DTG sometime in 2007 prior to his 18th B-Day, it is a lot of work and effort on his part, but he will tell you that he is better prepared for life ecause of some of things that it has taught him.
# 13 Well said
Let me preface by saying I have very litmited experience with boy scouts in the chruch.
But I don’t understand at all why the program is useful or necesary beyond our own YM program. I don’t understand what scouting has to do with church- of course BSA claims common values, but so many organizations and services exist to teach those outside the church, and we don’t even endorse them.
I don’t understand why the church would so heavily entangle itself with an outside program to teach what ought already be taught in the chruch. Is the YM program so lacking? If it needs suplementation so badly, why don’t the YW get scouting help too?
my husband was most recently the asst. scoutmaster. We never could understand why it was a church calling.
Struck a nerve Guy? For what it’s worth, I’m an Eagle Scout so you don’t need to teach me anything about Scouting. As far as the military flavor in Scouting can I just quote from one of your links?
“After returning as a military hero from service in Africa, Baden-Powell discovered that English boys were reading the manual on stalking and survival in the wilderness he had written for British soldiers”
Given that, how can you deny that Scouting has a military antecedent that continues to this day with the hierarchical ranks, the spit and polish, the divisions into patrols, etc?
Now, I admit I was going for a bon mot when I wrote the Prince of Peace thing, can you forgive me? But I never gravitated to that aspect of Scouting when I was a Scout and it is now my experience with my own boys and their friends that this taste of the military is even less relevant to them. They just aren’t impressed; in fact they make fun of whole “Major Frank Burns” mindset that it engenders.
Several people have mentioned the tight integration of scouting and Aaronic priesthood callings. It hasn’t always been so. Scouting used to be weekday activity for boys, with leaders and activities separate from their Sunday responsibilities.
The ward I grew up in had only two scoutmasters over a span of more than 15 years. These men were great scoutmasters. They were truly dedicated to scouting, they had long lasting relationships with the local scout council and they had years of experience to draw on when dealing with boys. But I don’t think either one would be called as a church scoutmaster today. One had a tobacco problem and one was only marginally active. But that was OK then. Scouting was seen as a means to provide these mean with meaningful service in which they could excel.
Today, with the tight correlation of scouting and priesthood, scout leaders must be priesthood leaders as well. And the type of men we want leading modern church scout troops are also the type of men needed for other high profile callings in the church. So modern scout leaders are frequently transient. In the ten years I’ve lived in my current ward we have had 4 scoutmasters. They come and they go just like gospel doctrine teachers and Young Men’s presidents.
Instead of a vocation scouting has become a calling and I’m not sure we are the richer for making it that.
KLC
I’m more interested in correction misinformation than I am teaching you anything. If you read my comment #10, you would have read that I prefaced it by stating Lord Powell was a successful military man. What you ignored also in the links was the explicit reference:
Quite frankly I’m very proud (for the most part) of American’s military, and see no problem in any association with it; however, scouting is not, as you suggest, or as some other suggest founded upon a military program, or is paramilitary in nature. I responded to a similar criticism on another blog long ago and far away here.
Again, scouting, like any auxiliary program in the Church is as good as the people who volunteer and are trained (hopefully). It also is as good as those who support, or don’t support it. It can be, and is often an excellent companion to the Duty to God program, and is fully sustained by the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators of this Church. That’s good enough for me. I’ve seen it work. I’ve seen where it doesn’t work so well. If it’s not working so well, then there are likely things that can and should be fine tuned.
Our troop and crew just had a fundraiser that brought together our entire ward in a group effort which helped teach sacrifice, service, love, and all the other important principles the Gospel and scouting espouse. You can see the results here.
I am an Eagle Scout and I have served as the Scoutmaster and currently serve as the Scout Committee Chairman in my Ward. Although I have participated in many memorable and enjoyable Scouting experiences as both a youth and an adult, I think the program is largely ineffecient, irrelevant to many of the youth and easily substituted. Most YM are participants precisely becaues it is the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood, not because Scouting activities align with their interests. Given the opportunity to choose between Scouting and a new, open-format program (which, of course, would also emphasize DTG), I think most youth and their parents and leaders would choose the latter. Maybe it’s just me, but parents seem disinterested, most LDS Scout leaders seem disinterested (and burned out) and many of the YM seem disinterested. Where does that leave us? IMO, the Church should end its ties with Scouting, replace the program with one centered on DTG among other things, and let those youth who want to participate in Scouting do so in troops sponsored by other organizations.
Guy, is scouting “paramilitary”? Is scouting “founded upon a military program”? The answer is no to both questions. And if you read all of my comments you will find that I have never stated otherwise.
What I have stated is, I think, undeniable. Scouting has a military flavor and it has military antecendents. How else do you explain uniforms, uniform inspections, hierarchical ranks, patrols, etc?
Maybe you have never experienced scouting that cherishes these roots, but I have. They apparently appeal to a certain type of scouter, but I found them anachronistic 30 years ago and my kids and their friends find them even more anachronistic today.
Can I say that the quasi-militaristic aspects of scouts were what I found most interesting? The problem is that those aren’t terribly pronounced. For instance when I was a scout in Canada we had dress uniform inspections and so forth. Things in most wards I’ve been in are so lacksidasical that most kids don’t even wear the uniforms.
As I said, the problem is that Scouts has become divorced from the “do it” attitude and is now caught up in bureaucracy and tedious requirements where the point is lost. Either have a formal organization and keep its quasi-militaristic form or else just have activities. It’s that weird ambiguous middle ground of disorganization and pointlessness that bugs me.
the problem is that Scouts has become divorced from the “do it” attitude and is now caught up in bureaucracy and tedious requirements where the point is lost. Either have a formal organization and keep its quasi-militaristic form or else just have activities. It’s that weird ambiguous middle ground of disorganization and pointlessness that bugs me.
Word.
Outdoor skills are invaluable for those serving missions overseas. I consider my mission “2 years of camping out with teenagers.”
I think the scouting structure is also good prep for a mission hierarchy.
Elder Oaks made it clear in a Gen Conf talk of a few years ago: the frequency of major natural disasters in the US and the world is increasing.
Emergency preparedness, working in a (military like) coordinated fashion, outdoor skills, survival skills, living outdoors (or even “living off the land”) are becoming more and more realistic things, and not some esoteric exercise “just for fun.”
Ask our weekend warriors who are now serving in Afghanistan and Iraq if Scouting experience helped prepare them. (I’ll bet those who are former scouts say yes.) The majority of men (and women) who have served in the Mid-east are Guard/Reserve, and did NOT expect to be there. So preparing people in general, and not just those volunteering for full-time military service, is a good thing.
History also seems to indicate that we are due for another world war in our lifetime. And let’s face it, among other things, scouting prepares boys to be soldiers. That’s a GOOD thing! And if you want good scouts, you need scouting-experienced leaders. If you lose a generation and have to start over, you won’t be able to pick up where you left off.
Scouting is not just about adult leaders teaching the boys, it’s also about older boys teaching the younger boys. If you lost the scouting program for a few years, it would take another 3 to 4 years to ramp back up.
The war on terrorism is not over. If 9/11 happened again, but on a grander scale, we could possibly see a general draft in effect within 90 days.
And it’s not just radical Islam, but also the Chinese who are currently engaged in saber-rattling. The stuff coming out of China has the Pentagon very concerned.
If you want to see an example of a country that eschews preparing boys for even the possibility of military service, look what happened to France in WWII. Uncalled-for and unjustified pacifism at both the national and individual level led to grand unpreparedness.
A famous Latin proverb: “Si Vis Pacem, Parabellum.”
If you wish peace, prepare for war.
And “One sword keeps another in the sheath.” -George Herbert
Many observers have noted that it was the appearance of weakness on the part of the United States that emboldened the terrorists and rogue states that supported them.
So yeah, I believe in Scouting, and more, to prepare people for living in the real world.
I’ve been with the YM in largely inter-city areas for about 5 years, in two different units. I totally agree with coringa (#19). Most parents don’t care, most kids are indifferent, and most leaders see it as something they have to do.
More doctrinally, however, I have great concerns that our young men can’t see where scouting ends and church begins and so start thinking that they can’t be good Aaronic priesthood holders without also liking camping. I’ve seen it happen. Also, some of my young men simply don’t come to mutual because they think scouting is boring, and I feel like I’m squandering the limited amount of time I get to spend with these boys on programs that have very little appeal for very urban kids.
I frankly sometimes wish Boy Scouts v. Dale had gone the other way so we’d have a line in the sand kind of reason get out of scouting.
If you wish peace, prepare for war by attending Scouts?
One sword keeps another in the sheath - this assumes the sword has been issued a knife handling permit by the Scout leader.
I support scouting in the Church, in part, because it is one of the few Church programs that allows (and encourages) boys and men to participate in many activities with boys and men outside of our Church community (without a proselyting objective). Dropping out of scouting in the US would provide one more excuse for boys and men to withdraw even further into our comfortable Church cocoon.
The first man/boy and boy/boy homosexuality I witnessed was at a scout camp decades ago. I think today’s anti-gay scouting was a backlash against some preversion in scouting of yesteryear. But they’ve gone to far, and a don’t ask, don’t tell policy with a prohibition on the man/boy or older boy/younger boy homosexuality makes much more sense rather than the present policy of decrimination against people for what they are rather than what they do.
Am I the only one who doesn’t want to be associated with bigoted organization like this?
I had a great time as a Boy Scout. I was more like John McIntyre than Frank Burns, I think.
Bookslinger #23: “A famous Latin proverb: ‘Si Vis Pacem, Parabellum.’ If you wish peace, prepare for war.”
Yes, I think that Savior said that. Somewhere in the Sermon on the Mount as I recall. Or was it D&C 98?
You’d get better answers to this question if you hadn’t loaded it the way you did.
Contrary to popular opinion, they didn’t kick Dale out of the boy scouts because he had homosexual feelings. They kicked him out because he spent all of his non-scouting time advocating homosexual rights (i.e., legality of sodomy and right to marriage). So he was asked to leave for his acts, not his feelings.
To the extent, however, that you mean that being gay is something you “are” rather than something you “do,” I would suggest that that topic has been dealt with on this and similar boards ad infinitum (or possibly ad naseum), and most recently two threads down.
I grew up in the church in Australia, and we had an excellent Young Men’s program, and no Scouting Program. When I was 14 they tried to institute a scouting program, but most of the boys felt it was all a little ridiculous. Why add all the trappings of scouting (uniforms, badges, salutes, etc) when those things are not necessary. The program lasted about 3 months before it was dropped.
I had excellent youth leaders, we hiked, camped, biked, canoed etc etc and all without the unecessary scouting trappings. To me it has always seemed just a little too Nazi Youth.
As for the gay issue? My problem is that under current scout rules, a young man who has self identified as gay would be excluded from scouting, but not from church (if he is not sexually active). In my mind the church’s stance is correct, the scouts is not.
All that said, scouting (please, no offense to those who love it and have fond memories) always seemed just unnecessary.
One last comment, someone above said that they were glad that scouting taught them that love of country and love of God are intertwined. What an American thing to say. How on earth are these things connected? So if I am an Iranian LDS I cannot love God unless I love my Country? If I was an LDS person in Nazi Germany, loving the flag would have been equated with loving God? While patriotism is good to a point, please remember that not every member of the church lives in the U.S. It is NOT a requirement to love the American flag and America the country. That is a very limited view of God, of whom ALL people of ALL countries are His children.
No, Jolard, I think you misunderstand him. Love of God need only be intertwined with love of my country, that is, the United States. God doesn’t care what you think about other countries.
Jimbob, whether the the Scout or Scout Leader is celibate gay, sexually active gay or in the closet gay, the current policy is they are not welcome. It’s not don’t ask, don’t tell and we’ll leave you alone in your privacy. It’s not welcome, period. That is bigotry. The insult to sensibility is made worse because sexually active heterosexual youth (which is most youth today) aren’t so excluded. I’m very uncomfortable with Scouting.
Hmmm.. I don’t want to hijack the thread, because it is not the prime focus, but I am still confused by what you said gst, unless you are joking. Are you saying that all of God’s Children should love the U.S.? Or are you saying that all of God’s children should love their own country? Either way I have a problem with that.
I was saying the former, and I was joking. Mostly.
lol, sorry my irony meter was malfunctioning.
What an American thing to say
If you re-read my post you will see that I am Canadian. And I think you missed my point entirely. I wasn’t saying that love of flag and country equate to loving God. I’m saying that those three things were closely related in the Scouting framework, and the love God of aspect of that trifecta was the only part that I would associate with a reason for incorporating Scouting within the Church.
God save the Queen!!
Me, Eagle Scout. My parents, both Silver Beavers. Scouting is part of my blood, but I doubt it will be part of my sons’.
There’s a quote about information technology strategy that says that if something is important to you, you spend money to make it reliable and predictable, and if that fails, you spend money to make it redundant. My current feeling about Scouting is that it’s been made redundant by other Church programs.
The Church started down the kill-Scouting-as-we-know-it mode when it changed the budgetary process and put the wet blanket on the so-called exorbitant trips (I think that even the most die-hard Scouters would agree with my basic premise of the effects of the 1990? budgetary changes on high-adventure).
It’s no longer “Scouting” as the non-LDS troops practice it. It’s just a programming tool for the YM program, and Scouting is dodgy outside the US anyway. The Duty to God program curiously mirrors Scouting, and could be implemented outside the US.
My sons will participate in Scouting because that the Church’s express direction. In 25 years, my grandchildren won’t be active participants in Scouting, I predict.
As to the bigotry and whatnot, that’s a yawner for me. By definition, most Church programs meet the standard for “bigotry” and we don’t worry about that, do we?
Most of my scouting experience was with a set of troops for sons of U.S. military servicemen in Korea, and they certainly overplayed the para-military bit. I was denied a Star rank advancement in large part for walking on the grass, and crying once over a situation with a bunch of muddy sleeping bags from a monsoon that I was instructed to put in a broken washing machine, making them not only somewhat muddy but soaked all the way through. (This was summer camp at Chinhae naval base, for the curious)
I vowed never to implement the Scout program so severely if I ever had the chance. However, I think this hostility to the military in general, as if defending ones country was contrary to the mission of the Church is ridiculous. Servicemen should be treated with a place of honor. The chapel I attended as a child, the Farmington Memorial Chapel (where the Primary was founded) has a large display with the names of every member who served and died in World War II.
I was taught to respect the military, and the country that uses it in righteousness with a religious class veneration - as men making the ultimate sacrifice, to lay down ones life for another.
Furthermore, I see military service as a *Priesthood* duty. If we were in a theocracy right now, the military would be a branch of the Priesthood. Did you know that the Utah National Guard traces its heritage to the Nauvoo Legion?
Patriotism and the duty one has to ones country has a very close association with the *Patriarchal* priesthood - are not nations extended families, whether by blood or by birth? Fathers have a responsibility to defend their families, military service is no more than an extension of that responsibility.
So as long as it is not taken to far, I see the para-miltary aspects of the Boy Scouts as generally a good thing - *especially* the more National Guard like aspects - emergency preparedness, first aid, civil service, citizenship, environment, land management, radio, and so on. Much of the same stuff is taught in any stake, Scout program or not.
So if we dump Scouts, we either largely replace it with something likely to be considerably dumbed down from what they have already (when implemented properly, of course) or we change primary focus from civil service / emergency preparedness to a missionary preparation program.
Personally, I would rather see Seminary do its job as a serious missionary preparation program, and preserve Boy Scouts or some similar service oriented program as the “activity” focus for Young Men.
That should be “served or died in World War II”
I find the above debate facinating. I am a Leader in Scouting in Australia and was formerly a Youth Member (a Cub Scout, Scout [Patrol Leader] and am a Queen’s Scout). Scouting is secular and Baden Powell was quite clear on this in a number of his original writings.
The important point of Scouting is that the individual ’serve their God’ - whatever form that God may take. As a person with a strong Christian conviction I face an ethical challenge here. A young person who is Hindu or Muslim or Buddist is (and must by definition) be welcome in my Troop and I have an obligation to support that individual to grow and maintain the spiritual aspect of their life.
If a Scout does not have or has not identified a spritual aspect to their life - I am obliged to assist them to explore what works for them. I cannot steer or drive a person one way or the other. BP was largely silent on sexuality (as would have been expected in the early 20th Century). I cannot see how a persons sexuality is linked to their capacity to perform a role in Scouting nor can I see how the issue is relevant. Indeed - in Australia it is unlawful to discriminate on the grounds of race, gender, age, sexuality or religion. As a part of our Scout Promise is to “do my duty to my God and to Australia” - a reasonable interpretation would be to uphold the laws of the land.
The Scouting program to be successful must be underpinned by successful operations in the field. Scouting is all about being in the bush living in and part of (and occassionally in spite of) nature. The program must take the individual beyond where they are at and stretch them all the while doing so as a part of a Brotherhood in which older persons guide younger persons (in BP’s words) ‘as an older Brother’.
If a particular group (be it a Church or otherwise) has taken the concept and changed it beyond this - then it is not Scouting except by name…it becomes a Youth Club. And I would be more than happy to pit the bushcraft / fieldcraft skills of my Troop against Youth Club members anyday.
HM
Two assets of scouting are community involvement and youth leadership. I know of nothing close to scouting for involving members of the Church, as representatives of the Church, with other people in the community. Second, scouting seems to implement youth leadership better than other aspects of our youth program. Both of these assets of scouting can be neglected by poor leaders, of course, and we can look at how to do them better in settings without scouting. I’m not sure what could replace, however, the leaders and boys of the LDS troops coming shoulder-to-shoulder with those from the Rotary Club troops, Catholic troops, et al.
A big concern I have for LDS scouting is I don’t think it can continue to function with our dwindling youth population and ward-based troops. This has our family looking carefully at what we will be doing with scouting in the coming year, as our only cub scouts for the past month have been two of my boys, and meeting together with a neighboring ward hasn’t been working so well.
On the outdoors aspects of scouting being outdated, I read an interview a few years back with Green Bar Bill, an old man who has been a national scout leader forever. He spoke of a shift around the early 1970s to make scouting more urban and relevant. This didn’t pan out, and by the early 1980s the outdoor adventure aspect was being given renewed emphasis.
He explained it was a mistake because outdoors adventure was never meant to be practical. It was meant as a hook to excite the spirit of boys. In the 1930s, he said, people worried about breathing night air and had less interest in camping than they do now.
On militarism, Baden-Powell was deliberate about making scouting for boys less militaristic than other youth programs of the time.
I think Stake based troops would be an excellent idea, anywhere from one to three per stake. Here along the Wasatch Front, wards are much smaller (membership wise, partly due to smaller families) than they used to be even thirty years ago. The typical scout troop is more like a patrol. The same problem weakens a several other ward based programs, as well as ward/stake based programs, such as young single adults.
All the Primary/YM/YW classes seems to be less than half the size of what they were in the seventies and eighties.
Back to #19 - one concern I have (I’m a Cubmaster in our ward) is how “insulated” LDS packs and troops can be from the ones in the very towns our kids come from. The town pack barely knows we exist and it’s difficult to help them understand how we might be part of their community when our kids come from 7 or 8 surrounding towns. We don’t fit into their established programs (like recruitment drives or popcorn fundraisers) very well. Seems we just exist to build our own boys… a worthy goal, to be sure, but inward-looking despite the efforts at “community service” through the Scouting program.
Re #44, though - stake based packs/troops in an area like ours (the “mission field”) would be a real undue burden in gas usage, travel time, and would be well-nigh impossible on a weeknight. And since our stake crosses state lines, would exacerbate the existing issue of LDS scouts sticking to their own and not being involved in the broader Scouting community. This has come up a number of times, since we do stake-based 11 year old day camp and stake merit badge college, which is a duplication of existing programs within our local Scouting councils… not sure why…except again to cement LDS ties to the exclusion of being the leaven in the loaf.
In the “mission field”, why not jointly sponsor Scout troops with other denominations? If they will not meet at our facilities, we could join with them at theirs. No reason why Scouting needs to be specifically LDS.
Here’s the real problem with scouting. For all the supposed emphasis on the ideals and principles and love of God that it is supposed to teach, scouting as part of the LDS church does not do that. Most LDS members think it does not because of what actually takes place during scouting, but because the church has intertwined it so much with the Aaronic Priesthood. However, as I experienced it growing up (yes, I too am another Eagle scout) and as I’ve seen it practiced in my ward now, scouting is not about religion or even about character building, but about camping, hiking, and other outdoor activities. And what happens to boys who don’t like such activities? They’re endlessly tormented by scouts and leaders until they either get their Eagle and their parents let them stop attending, or until their testimonies falter because they figure if they can’t make themselves like scouting, they must not be good Aaronic Priesthood holders.
I think #38 above is spot-on, in that while the church is still committed to scouting now, it is also taking measures so that it won’t have to be committed to it soon. And I think this is primarily because it focuses too much on a narrow set of activity and not enough on personal spiritual and social growth, despite what the scout law and oath try to claim. The Duty to God program is much more akin to the YW personal progress in its focus on individuals creating their own goals, own projects, and so forth in order to develop and grow in their own way. Hopefully, this will help alleviate the disconnect between Sundays and the weekday activity in the Aaronic Priesthood program. And hopefully by the time my son is twelve, there won’t be a leader who wants to take 12 boys on an overnight clay pigeon shootout in Utah’s west desert.
I agree with Bookslinger that preparation for missionary work is one of the chief links between AP purposes and Scouting skills. As Scoutmaster, Committee Chair, Stake Scouting Coordinator, Regional Scouting Director, etc., I’ve found that Young Men who leave Scouting prior to high school are unprepared for missionary service.
All the Young Men I’ve known who have prematurely returned from their missions were not Scouts in high school. This is particularly true of Young Men on foreign missions - they don’t have the self-confidence and coping skills necessary. They may have been faithful attendees at Seminary, but if they are not prepared to be self-sufficient, they are not fully prepared. If I were on the Missionary selection team, I’d only send Scouts with High Adventure experience to third-world foreign missions.
With regard to supporting Scouting financially, in the U.S. our tithing funds support registration and in many cases portions of camping and program expense. Contributing to the Council Friends of Scouting campaign is a small price to pay for the benefit Scouting provides to our sons (the only fund-raising activity sanctioned by the Handbook of Instructions). Have you compared the cost of outfitting your son for football or lacrosse with the cost of Scouting - and weighed the development of character each provides?
Wouldn’t trade my scouting experiences growing up for anything. This thread hasn’t touched on the fact that the (American) Scouting movement is in rather severe crisis. This is driven largely by the fact that most troops are either LDS or Catholic sponsored. Their entrenched position (especially: no atheist members or leaders, period, via the religious oath– forget the gay issue) clearly violates the Establishment Clause and is leading to a continued gradual loss of public funding, as it should. This forces the movement more deeply into the arms of the two primary sponsoring churches. It may well lead to some kind of schism. It won’t surprise me if the Church winds up dropping out of the program altogether eventually. It has already threatened to do so. Could go either way. Would be terribly sad if scouting winds up marginalized because of its perception as a discriminatory organization. I already know plenty of (non-LDS) parents who won’t let their sons participate. Did anybody here see the recent “Penn & Teller: Bullshit!” episode about scouting?
Here are some references. One is from the UK.
http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/sha/crisis.htm
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/commentary.aspx?id=2565
One more thought: INACTIVES RULE THE BLOGGERNACLE ON SUNDAYS !!! Oops, gonna be late for my yoga class……
Hello all, I would never have guessed such controversy could swirl around Scouting in an largely LDS net group. My children (1 boy, 2 girls) are grown now but we all agree that Scouting greatly blessed our lives. As I peruse our family photo albums, how many wonderful memories my wife and I have of our son’s and our daughters’ marvellous activities in their Explorer Post and Sea Scout Ship. The “magic” of Scouting worked for us. The times we had in the mountains or sailing or just a simple service project all add up to a rich pot of memories. All aspects of the movement from uniforming and advancement all worked us. The uniforms worked their spell on getting us into places our Venture Crew or Ship would otherwise never have seen. The advancements put a focus on our efforts and goal setting. We have made so many dear Scouting friends internationally and we’re all looking forward to going to the UK next summer for the 100th Anniversary World Jamboree! I guess the Jameses are an old fashioned family…and we love it! HeidÃ¥
Bill
“Have you compared the cost of outfitting your son for football or lacrosse with the cost of Scouting - and weighed the development of character each provides? “
The cost of outfitting myself for cross-country and track was just a good pair of running shoes that I would have bought anyway. The development of character exceeded anything I experienced in scouting by a factor of ten.
I did experience some character growth in Scouting — becoming mature enough to realize that earning the Eagle scout, however meaningless I considered it to be, was mainly an exercise in helping others feel like they were magnifying their callings by helping me.
The talk of character growth and scouts preparing for missions in so many posts is a little surprising to me. Am I the only one that was in a ward where parents either bribed/forced thier kids to get an Eagle, or held their hand at every step until it was complete? My employer must have had similar expereiences, he considers applicants who put “Eagle Scout” on a resume as people that probably need padding so he’ll start looking for their shortcomings. He isn’t the first employer that has told me how little it means to him.
I was usually bored at scouts, and I’ll leave the choice to attend completely up to my son. I do wish my daughter was interested in Girl Scouts, I’d love to have a direct line to those cookies.
A couple of the above posts mention the community involvement that is fostered through the LDS Scouting program. My experience is that the LDS Scouting community insulates itself and sets itself apart from the non-LDS Scouting programs so much that community involvement becomes negligible. We are a peculiar people and make that peculiarity resonate strongly in the Scouting community at-large. For example, the Church disallows participation in annual popcorn sales and most camping on Sunday (Oddly, our Stake this year has reserved a week at a nearby Scout camp, running Saturday to Saturday. The Stake will be holding church services on Sunday. If it’s possible to do that once a year, why not for every Camporee?), among other things. LDS leaders in my area typically do not attend monthly Roundtable meetings because their callings require that they attend YM/YW joint activities instead.
As for character building, youth leadership and other positives that may result from Scouting, I suggest that such positives may also result from attentive leaders who plan activities and lessons (maybe even camping!) that appeal to the broad spectrum of young men in their wards and who are not saddled by the restrictions of an outdated, one-size-fits-all Scouting program as the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood. And think of the additional funds that could be diverted into YM/YW budgets instead of being spent on registration fees and Boy’s Life subscriptions.
I want to be clear that I enjoyed Scouting as a youth; were that not the case, I certainly would not have earned the Eagle rank. But Scouting aligned well with my interests in camping, backpacking, fishing, rock climbing, etc. Would I have been worse as a missionary without the Scouting program? I don’t know, but I’m not convinced by anectdotal evidence that only good Scouts make for good missionaries. I have anectdotal evidence of my own to the contrary: many friends and associates who never participated in Scouting or who dropped out of the program midway who went on to be wonderful missionaries, fathers, YM leaders and Bishops. Scouting is a wonderful program for certain youth but not all. To echo my comment in #19, above, IMO, the Church should kindly part ways with Scouting and replace it with an inclusive, gospel-centered program that will help young men develop physically, mentally and spiritually.
Brother James,
I think you have misunderstood the original point of discussion, along with some others who have posted their thoughts. The question is not whether scouting is good or valuable. The question is whether scouting should be the official program of the church for Aaronic Priesthood activity.
I have nothing against scouting. I think it is a great program for young men. I do have serious doubts about its relevance as the only official church program for young men.
I’m sure you could find parents who would wax rhapsodic over the values Little League baseball instilled in their sons. Some people love sports and thrive in that environment…more power to them. But I would never support making Little League the official youth activity program for young men in the church. I feel much the same about scouting.
#54 - The DTG program takes care of all areas for YM. To earn the thing, each YM has to complete 144 tasks/projects (that’s the actual number) from the time they are 12 to 18. It takes a lot or work, but as my son will atest to, it has helped him immensely with some skills development that he might not have attained anywhere else, even with Scouting, but that being said, he also enjoyed Scouts and probably helped him to see the benefits of DTG.
I think there are a few things that scouting does increadably well that the church does not do at all.
Train Leaders. If the church is going to ‘go it own way’ with the DTG program they must train the leaders. For liablilty purposes that means, Outdoor Training, Water Training, Climbing training, Youth Protection, Trek safely, High Skills trainings, Shooting trainings. You can argue if the groups should participate in these but they do. The church relies on scouting for a developed curriculim to train leaders to reduce the liabilty.
I would point out a talk bythe YM president Dalquest that he is giving around the country at the moment. Groups that have a functioning Scout program have a functioning DTG program. If they dont have a scout program the DTG program usually fails. Note: he did not say allways but usually. The scouting program loses older boys because leaders refuse to keep it interesting for boys they dont want to play basketball every week. There are more interesting things to do.
I am saddened by many of the comments. Despite the fact that the Prophet and leaders of this Church support Scouting, many doubt its value.
Could the Church succeed with a YM program that does not include Scouting? Certainly. It does so in most parts of the world. Let’s use that as the basis for the question as posed by Kevin.
So, what does Scouting add? It provides an organized forum to practice what we are teaching on Sunday. It provides a program that we can employ. It is much richer than just the Duty To God program. It creates a whole set of activities, mostly outdoors related, that allow our young men to stretch themselves; to face some obstacles and overcome them. For those of you who were scouts, how many of your best memories relate to something that was a challenge that you overcame. #57 also refers to an extensive set of training that we can take advantage of to help keep our boys safe in this environment.
Why don’t we see this? Because too many leaders aren’t willing to work. Too many get the calling, hope for the day they will be released and fill in the time in between. Pres. Dahlquist’s comment about where successful Scouting was seen, there was also success in DTG. This is because the leaders are willing to WORK. You could put any program in front of them and they would probably make it work. But for the most part, our YM leaders aren’t willing to step up. There is no evidence for successful DTG programs where this is not success in the Scouting programs. If the DTG were the answer, this would not be true.
The Scouting program has much to offer. Some have indicated that the LDS units have not gone out with the community. Is that a failing of the Scouting program or those leaders?
Are we, as Young Men’s Leaders, setting a bar and helping the youth to achieve or are we letting the youth set the bar and trying to convince ourselves that the bar is high enough?
The scouting program is no longer fulfilling the goals for the young men in the church and needs to be cancelled immediately. Friends of scouting fund raising is difficult and paperwork for the same is redundant. As far as community and citizenship because the LDS religion is not part of the world then Sunday activity is out of the question for community service for the young men. Self-reliance is not implimented currently for the young men in the scouting program so all the adult leaders and commitee members are depended on for most of the operations and getting the boys to complete the Eagle scout rank. Essential skills for life are not required to get through the program so getting through a job interview or bieng sucessful in the work place are not the predictable result for scouting involvement and eagle scout rank. Parents need to parent better for these results and the young men take thier stewardship more seriously. The church should discontinue the sponsorship of the Scout Program and emphasize self reliance,parenting techniques and personal stewardship and not wait for priesthood leaders and mission presidents to re-teach the youth (and thier parents) of the church what the should already know.
Since it was brought up let me comment on the gay issue.
Being Gay is not necessarily the first concern, but not our society has not yet become liberal enough the pedophilia is considered acceptable. That would be my first concern.
One of the reasons that the Church does not use the Scouting program in the world outside of the US and Canada is that it does not have a say in who makes an acceptable leader in the program. While many of you may not realize this, the Church bars folks for life from holding positions with the youth if they have been ‘found guilty’ in Church courts for certain offenses. The US court system doesn’t have the same view on repentance as the Lord and past acts have had significant sway in legal proceedings on subsequent offenses, so the Church has put restrictions in place. You may recently have noticed some changes in policy regarding male Primary workers driven by the same concerns.
For those of you who consider the gay thing an issue, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind having your Deacon son’s advisor be gay. He could be a great guy except for that, but I would prefer someone where I didn’t have to keep adding the ‘except for that’ to the qualification. Now, I’m not suggesting that anyone is perfect, but there are some larger and smaller imperfections in the example I would like set for my youth. This one falls on the larger side in my opinion.
Good comments Jeff. I have only our Stake to compare to, but from what I have seen the boys who are advancing in scouting are also doing DTG. Several of the young men and their fathers have stated that they are not interested in scouts, but will do DTG. This has been lip service only. They are not doing either program. Scouting and DTG teach goal setting and perseverance. These important traits are missing in today’s society.
I have seen scouting work both in the church and out of the church. A good LDS scout program teaches leadership, being well-rounded, and prepares boys to serve missions in physically challenging areas of the world.
I think that a lot of the negativity to scouting can be blamed on past bad scout leaders (shaming) and sexual abuse. The way to remedy this is for fathers to go on campouts with their son(s). The more men participating in the program will ensure the success and safety of the program. Scouts were not meant as a babysitting service, but as a way for fathers and other men to teach boys how to become men. We women can not adequately do this, so please men step up to the plate and go with your boys on the camping trips and while you are there take under your wing the fatherless boys who are also in the troop.
Also another big tip: provide for your boy(s) small individual tents. If boys are sleeping in separate tents this eliminates the sexual experimentation that can go on.
For you men out there who have had bad scout experiences please be open-minded, try the program out with your boy looking at it with adult eyes; you just might change your mind.
This is a curious thread, with a lot of animosity and misunderstanding of how Scouting is intended to work in the Church (in USA, at least).
The Boy Scouts of America is different than most Scouting organizations around the world in that they charter their program to community organizations, including churches. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the very first organization to have such a charter. (This does not mean it was the first to have troops, but that it helped develop the chartering partner plan now used.) As such, the Church gains the right to use the BSA programs to accomplish its own purposes, which focus primarily on developing Aaronic Priesthood purposes.
Second, although the Boy Scouting program expects an active Outdoors emphasis, if you think (as an adult) that Scouting’s purpose is to develop outdoor skills, then you are mistaken. The purpose is to develop character, citizenship, and total fitness. The outdoors focus and skills development in a sense provides a game and external stage where these attributes can be developed. If you think that boys start to lose interest in the adventure, then I am guessing one of a few things are possible: (1) the program isn’t being used correctly. This might be too much class-like instruction (who needs to go to mutual for more school?) (2) the boys aren’t choosing their activities, (3) all boys 12-18 are clumped into one group instead of following the Church’s suggestion of sticking with the quorums as separate activity programs. In fact, as the young men get older, their interests change and so do the suggested programs the Church uses from BSA (Boy Scouts to Varsity Scouts to Venturing).
Third, we are trying to develop priesthood holders. One of the important points in this is that they learn to understand how to function as a quorum, how to be a presidency, how to care about other quorum members, and how to plan activities that meet specific purposes. The Boy Scouting program provides powerful planning resources and focused responsibilities to help these young men develop these attributes. Having learned about these tools, if I wasn’t able to use the BSA programs, then I would essentially have to reinvent all of that work. This is what diligent AP leaders are probably having to do with the Duty to God program in countries without Scouting. I feel sorry that they have so much extra work, when all I need to do is look in my Program Helps to get an idea of activities, games, and weekly plans for the boys to work through to plan their own activities.
Sorry some of you had bad experiences. I’m sold and wish more leaders would take the time and effort to learn enough. They’d catch the vision too.
~ Brian Walton
I like scouting. I enjoyed it as a kid.
And I was the one ditching all the merit badge activities and wandering off into the wilderness on my own. My mom practically earned my Eagle Scout award for me. A lot of the time, the only thing making me go to the activities was my dad (he always called Scouting “the activity arm of the Priesthood”).
I wasn’t an exemplary scout. I thought a lot of it was dumb as a boy. I wasn’t popular with the other boys either.
But I still support it.
It’s a lot better than the alternative of having your fat kids sit at home playing Halo, eating Cheetos, whining about chores and bugging you about when you’re going to buy them another toy to give their lives some meaning.
I find it stunning that there are people who actually believe that the church should cancel Scouting immediately or those who don’t understand why Scouting is even in the church. How it started is irrelevant. The Lord, through His prophet, says we are to run Scouting so don’t think that you know better than the Lord does. That should be the end of this discussion. The only thing left to talk about should be how can we support it and how those of us in it can magnify our callings so we run a great program (not a medicore one…not a good enough one). If you don’t have a testimony of Scouting then you should get one and stop questioning it.
Those who think the DTG program was developed as a program to replace Scouting really need to read up on teh statements of the Brethren who have stated exactly the opposite.
I don’t think scouting is making boys skinnier these days, unless the two troops I attened weren’t the norm. There wasn’t much physical activity involved other than a few campouts every year. And the kids that come around on holidays in my neighborhood putting up flags are all chubby little dudes.
Garth,
I’m one of those you’re describing. I think scouts is a flawed and antiquated program for most of my Aaronic priesthood holders. But every other Wednesday, I put on my scout shirt and go to scouts (I think it’s shrinking though; it just keeps getting tighter and tighter around my abdomen). Why? Because I was asked to do it by my bishop, and that’s about it. I am following the Brethern. I don’t agree with them on this issue (to the extent they have a position), but I do what I’m asked because I believe God has put them in charge of this church generally and my bishop locally. However, that doesn’t mean that scouting is necessarily the best idea or the only idea that God would be okay with. That is, I have no doubts that the Brethern can be good and inspired men who are taking this church where God wants it taken, but still be wrong about scouting. God has certainly let his prophets and leaders be wrong about policy in the past, and may very well be wrong on policy in the future. That should come as no surprise to anyone who has had a calling that they got better at as they went due to the fact that they left behind somethings that didn’t work for those that did.
JimBob,
What about scouts is antiquated for your young men? what are the flaws?
With what age groups are you working?
What interests these young men?
Do they expect entertainment or meaningful experiences at activities?
What long-term objectives would you want to accomplish?
What is the purpose of an activity program in relation to these objectives?
How would you measure success?
JimBob,
How excited do you expect the boys to be about a program for which you show little enthusiasm?
I don’t know JimBob, he may have tremendous love for the boys he works with and have an excellent program. But his comments got me thinking in a more general vein.
Here is a leader that has no testimony of Scouting, but weekly dons his Scout shirt and runs a program. The image of a wolf in sheep’s clothing just keeps coming to mind. If there is a downfall in the Scouting program, I think this is at the heart of the issue.
Let’s change the example, but retain the concept. Let’s consider a Deacon’s Quorum Advisor who does not have a testimony of the Law of Chastity. Like many he considers it antiquated and out of step with our times. There are condoms to prevent the spread of STDs and birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Whenever the Law of Chastity comes up as a lesson he will put on his suit just like every other week and he may even teach the lesson. The boys, however, will sense his lack of sincerity. It is hard to imagine that a bishop would allow this situation to persist, but I think we would all see something amiss here.
Now back to Scouting. We have leaders who are uncommitted to the program, who have not gone to the effort to gain a testimony of the program. The prophet certainly has a testimony of the program and the values it instills. Somehow that is not translating like a testimony of the Law of Chastity. We put people in charge of the program who don’t have testimonies of the program. That is not unique to Scouting. But when they fail to gain a testimony of the program we don’t necessarily remove them or encourage them. There are too many who stop at the surface. My analogy with the Law of Chastity showed how the surface issues are mitigated, but failed to consider the emotional issues of trust and loyalty to mention just a couple that are not considered. Many people stop at the surface level of Scouting, an outdoor recreation program, without understanding the underlying goals of character development, citizenship training and promoting physical and mental fitness. They come from a boy’s perspective on how it can be a great outdoor program, rather than an adult perspective of how those activities are used to instill values.
Another example that comes to mind is the number of boys I have taken on campouts that missed their mama. It took a few campouts for mama to kick them out the door. Sometimes it took a whole week of camp for them to deal with the separation anxiety. One of the best I remember of those was the boy who I finally allowed to call his mama from Scout Camp. She said that his brother on a mission missed her too, but the brother stayed, just like the son at camp was going to stay. It gave the son at camp courage and let him know he was not the only one who felt this way, but he was going to have to learn to deal with the situation. A great, perhaps non-spiritual, preparation for a mission.
The largest problem with Jeff’s analogy, however, is that breaking the law of Chastity is a grievous sin. Disliking camping isn’t. Despite what some overzealous scoutmasters may think about boys who can’t see the allure of the “spirit of adventure.”
As I commented earlier, the “purpose” (as in what is written down in handbooks) of scouting may be to develop character, but in practice that, for the most part, does not happen within scouting itself. It happens through Church activity. If you replace Scouting with another activity program, such as Duty to God, the character building will still be there — and it will be much more accessible to a wider majority of the Church’s youth.
Yes, scouting is supported by the First Presidency. But it is not an issue of doctrine. It is an issue of policy. And policies change all the time. Jimbob’s point is that he supports the current policy, while hoping that some day it will change. This, in my view, is a very faithful way to live life as a latter-day saint. This is what African-Americans and others of African descent had to do before they were allowed to be ordained to the priesthood–support the leaders in what they currently say, hoping that someday soon God will reveal further light and knowledge.
jjohnsen,
Of course you’re right that a cosmetic change like enrolling your son in extracurriculars like scouting, or anything else, aren’t going to magically make the kid healthy and active (which I care about far more than actual body-shape).
But American kids are quite sedentary and don’t see much of the light of day, by and large. I appreciate scouting for doing its own small part to counteract this trend. Kids need to get out more. It’s nice that faithful Mormon boys are basically required to, via scouting. That more than justifies the drawbacks in my mind.
Jeff, several times you have mentioned getting a testimony of scouting. Sorry, but I don’t see it as a testimony issue. I don’t have a testimony of scouting, nor do I have a testimony of square dancing, barbershop quartet singing, little league baseball, pop warner football, quilting or scrapbooking. All of these are fine activities for those who gravitate toward them but none are dependent on testimonies and none should be forced on our children simply because “that is the program”.
Many of the negative comments seem to be from folks who don’t understand the scouting programs for older boys — varsity scouting and especially venturing. Like many church members, some commenters seem fixated on the boy scout experience and eagle trail, ignoring the much broader range particularly of the venturing program (take a look at http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=vy — and keep in mind that despite the use there of the spruce green shirt, uniforms for venturing crews can be whatever the crew chooses). Prepare for the working world and job interviews? It’s there. Interest young men who don’t like camping? It’s there. We just don’t use it. The Brethren’s inspiration is to provide us the program; it’s our task to learn it and implement it. Unfortunately proper implementation is far too rare.
Brian (67): I have now worked 5 years with kids in two different large cities. They have all been in inter-city kids; none had ever gone camping or tied knots or cooked on dutch ovens before. Most of them think scouting is pretty silly, but show up because they like church generally.
Jeff (68, 69): N.G. and KLC summed my thoughts up perfectly, so I won’t repeat them, but I think another fundamental problem with your comments is that you’re assuming I’m facially unenthusiastic and a wolf in sheep’s clothing. As far as I know, every boy and the whole of the bishopric thinks I’m way into scouting. If anything, some boys are coming because I do my best to make it seem like something I really enjoy. In truth, I’m there because I was asked to be by those I believe the Lord put in charge.
JrL, I have been involved in scouting for many years. I have lived in several wards and stakes and have many friends with scouts in many other wards. I have never seen a ward that has implemented varsity of venture scouting for older boys, never. Not saying that it doesn’t exist, but my experience is that the church focuses almost exclusively on boy scouts.
I don’t think testimony is too strong a word, but let me back off of it for a minute and choose a different word, sincerity.
The boys will figure out in a minute if you are sincere about wanting to have a good program. If you are not, whatever you do will probably not be very successful. My real point in my analogy with the Law of Chastity was not about the seriousness of breaking it versus not being a Scout, but about how quickly and how well the boys are going to know if you are being sincere in what you teach. If one is just going through the motions and has no real sincere intent it will be clear to the boys. This is a key attribute in whether any program becomes successful.
The list of other programs you mentioned not having a testimony of are not Church programs. While I might like some of them I don’t have testimonies of any of them either. But Scouting is a program of the Church. For those who have spent some time trying to understand it beyond its surface value as an outdoor recreation program, I think they see its greater purpose. This study does not happen overnight and it often takes quite some time with people who are really trying to learn it. It has a line upon line aspect to it similar to the gospel. One gets a handle on one layer and with continued work lights come on and one starts to get a handle on the next level. I don’t think I have finished working my way toward the center of this onion in nearly 20 active years of working on it. This is one of the reasons that the General Authorities often include Tenure as one of the 4 T’s of Scouting; so they can get the time it takes to understand how the program actually has an impact.
Jeff, your comments made me recall an incident from the new David O. McKay biography by Prince. Apparently when he was well in to his 90s President McKay attended a Boy Scout National Jamboree. He later told the Twelve at their weekly meeting that he had been attending Boy Scout functions for most of his life but was only now beginning to really understand Scouting…(tongue firmly in cheek)
Jimbob - I am with you 100%, and I am somewhat disheartened at the jump to lable you as a lazy wolf in sheeps clothing by some of the others on this thread.
Every week I show up in my uniform, with an activity planned, and a smile on my face, and genuine love and concern in my heart for the boys, and I am not a fan of Scouting. I guess my testimony is lacking.
One of the major drawbacks to the Church Scouting program in my opinion is the selection process for Scout leaders. In troops outside the Church leaders are actual volunteers who have an interest in Scouting and want to be Scout leaders. In the Church you are called, quite different.
When I was called to be in YM I was not questioned about my interest in Scouting, or my desire to be a Scout leader. In fact I went out of my way to tell the person calling me that I was enthusiastic about the YM program, but that I wasn’t an outdoorsman and would prefer not to be involved in Scouts. No problem they said. Two weeks later I had a conversation with the YM President that went something like this “We’ve been thinking it over and usually the second counselor is the Scout leader. You are the second counselor. You are now the Scout leader.”
I think the program would work much better if actual volunteers were in charge. Until then, much like jimbob, I will continue to run the program and do my duty as best as I know how. What I tell myself is that if they wanted a program for the boys that included week long survivor camps in the mountains they would have called someone with those skills. They didn’t, they called me. So the program will be run to the best of my ability. Last week we had a fire in my fire pit in my back yard. We roasted hotdogs and made smores. Teh boys had a blast! It would have been more picturesque in the mountains, but thats not me.
If that makes me a wolf in sheeps clothing, so be it.
“I have never seen a ward that has implemented varsity of venture scouting for older boys, never.”
I have never been in a ward or stake where venturing was used, other than perhaps in name. But I have been in a few with varsity scouting.
I was a varsity coach in our ward a couple of years ago. As JrL points out, it is a very flexible program–boys design their own uniform, plan their own activities from a very large menu that goes far beyond camping or “traditional scouting”, and we integrated Duty to God into that menu. If the boys voted against an activity, we didn’t do it. If they voted for an activity, we did it–with one exception. The boys voted to have a session of “group therapy”, and the bishop just laughed when they asked for approval.
I, and the other adult leaders, enjoyed our experience with varsity scouts, and I believe the boys did too.
I called no one lazy. I even indicated I didn’t know JimBob and he might be very sincere about working with his boys.
So, I can trust that Talon and JimBob are trained in the Scouting program. I can trust that their Patrol Leader Councils are running the program. I can assume that the Scoutmaster is effectively executing his role in teaching his Senior Patrol Leader how to lead the boys in executing the program.
If these assumptions are not true, then I ask again about how sincere your efforts are to run the program the Church has chosen as part of its youth program in the United States and Canada.
If you are bringing the program, not the boys, you are running an interesting facsimile of the Scouting program. Survival weeks in the wilderness are not required to run a good program. You can do lots of very effective tail-gate camping. But if you aren’t camping on a regular basis you are missing lots of truly wonderful opportunities to get to know the boys and to have real meaningful time with them. It is not about the camping location. It is about the time away from the game boy, nintendo, x-box, computer, etc. Around the campfire you can bare your testimony in a way that will probably have a very different impact than in the classroom on Sunday morning (not that that isn’t important too).
If you aren’t there (and maybe you are) give it a try. It might lead to the understanding the next layer of the precept upon precept. You don’t have to be a mountain man to do this. But Scouting without the outings is little more than a hollow advancement program. If that is all that you see in Scouting, I can understand why you don’t find value in it.
Jeff…some people will just not get it and that’s the way it is. To the detriment of their youth. When President Dahlquist was set apart he was counselled to become “almost consumed” with the young men. Those leaders who put on the uniform, show up, and run an activity each week simply because they’ve been asked to are missing out. They definitely have a testimony of obedience but they definitely aren’t magnifying their calling, which is certainly their choice. It’s sad that they can’t see the good that can result from a leader who not only obeys and is at mutual for the 1.5 or 2 hours a week but also sacrifices time throughout the week to go to training, get involved at the council level, assist at other events…ie. becoming consumed! I have just started my eighth year in YM in my ward and I think things are finally beginning to click!
Garth
We’re not nearly that deep, Jeff. If I didn’t accept the calling in the wards I’ve been in, probably no one would. The wards/branches I’ve been in tend to struggle generally, so I do the best I can with the resources I have. Like most people, my time is at a premium. Given those factors, I believe the way I am running the program is consistent with the advice E. Perry gave in the world wide training meeting recently. Paraphrased, he said that smaller and struggling units should implement the programs to the best of their ability, and not feel guilty about not hitting the ideal. (By any chance, are you writing from Utah or Idaho?)
On a related tangent, I have noticed that there are two callings in the church in which the person who has them tends to magnify them almost to the exclusion of all other programs, because the callings are just so important to the person. The first is the choir director–I can’t tell you how many I’ve met who believed that no meetings should ever conflict with choir, which is insane to me. The second is scout master.
JimBob,
I think your comment about the choir is hilarious. (”Bishop! How dare you not support the choir! The hymn book says that every ward should have an active choir, and you’re only letting us sing three songs this Christmas!”) Of course, I also like to sing in the choir, so my tongue is somewhat in cheek. I’ve seen the same thing about scout master. But I’ve also seen it with the family history director/consultant(?) And the library. And the (fill in the blank).
Anyway, thanks for responding partially to my earlier question: your boys come from large cities and haven’t had much experience with such things as knot-tying and dutch ovens. It sounds great that you have been enthusiastically working with the boys, even if you haven’t seen how the Scouting program itself is benefitting them.
But I’m really curious: What part of Scouting do they think is silly or an unfortunate spending of time?
I’ll take a guess, in order of likelihood: (1) uniform and (2) advancement. These are only two of the methods of Scouting, and most likely the boys have a distrust/distaste of these aspects because of how they are presented.
First, the uniform has a lot of symbolic value (belonging to a brotherhood, reminder of values, etc.). If the values and brotherhood of Scouting aren’t capturing the hearts of the boys, then it is unlikely that the uniform will have any value for them either. This grows loss of value grows as the boys get older. (And the Varsity and Venturing programs have built-in mechanisms to work with this development as well.)
Second, advancement typically becomes a drudgery when the young men perceive that this is the purpose of Scouting. But this isn’t even true. Advancement is a natural outcome of effective Scouting, as it provides a recognition of development on the part of the boys. Unfortunately, all too often in the church (and admittedly outside as well), troops focus on “working through the requirements” of merit badges and rank advancements. Talk about a boring meeting! Most of the requirements of merit badges aren’t designed for a meeting, and then most of us aren’t gifted enough teachers to figure out how to turn them into something interesting. So then “Scouts” becomes another tedious classroom exercise.
But these aren’t the Scouting program, even if it is what most of us see or experienced in our youth.
In fact, if I were to step into a program and the boys showed a lack of interest or even a disdain for the uniform or advancement, I’d take a side-step and avoid these issues temporarily. I’d wear my uniform regularly. But I’d encourage them to choose their own activity uniform, and talk it up as a way of showing unity as a quorum when they wear their uniform (note the common roots: unity/uniform). Maybe even make a contest in designing art to put on a shirt. I’d also not bring up advancement right away either. Instead, I’d want to help them think up some adventures that they’d like to do (within appropriate resource availability). So what are they going to need to do to prepare? So, we’ll use the activities leading up to the adventure to develop these basic skills.
Perhaps even more importantly, I’d need to work on getting the quorum presidency involved in developing this plan to make sure that the activities are meeting the needs of the quorum members. (It’s their job, not the job of the advisor!) To do this effectively, I’d want to have resources for the young men so that they can accomplish this work. (How many deacons could get an effective plan put together without a lot of guidance?) But BSA provides these resources. As a Scout leader, I get to motivate and love the young men, share my testimony, and keep them on course, while the youth leaders are putting the program together and seeing it work.
Anyway, I’m curious in learning more about what your youth dislike about Scouting. And how the age groups are mixed. (Which ages think that the Scouting is silly? My experience is that this is more often 15-17 year olds.)
Jeff/Garth
I think you are working from a different paradigm than me and Jimbob. My ward has has gone through 4 YM presidencies in the last 2 years. We have 6 YM in our ward, 3 that are 12-14, 1 that is 16, and 2 that are 17-18. 2 are inactive, 2 semi active, 2 regular attenders.
Our ward has never had a Ventures program for the over 14 age group. Scouts has been held sporadically at best for the past 3 years.
All I can say is Scouts has been held on a regular basis three times a month for the past 4 months since I have been called, and this will continue for as long as I am in that position. This is in spite of the fact that I don’t love Scouting. I’m sorry if this isn’t magnifying my calling. I guess my looking glass is just smaller than yours.
Scouts is working in your wards for all the right reasons. Its not working in mine because of many factors. I’m doing my best in spite of that. That was the question this post was trying to ask and get an anwer to. I’m sorry if you don’t like my answer.
I’m trying to be as polite as possible even though I’m marginally offended that my testimony is being questioned by people who have never met me or walked a mile in my reluctant Scoutleader shoes.
Garth - I’m glad that you have been part of a successful program in your ward for the past 8 years. That kind of continuity is sorely needed in my ward. Obviously you enjoy your calling and doing well at it. Now try to think of the worst calling in the Ward (in your mind) and imagine that you have just been called to it. You do the job as best you can, but your heart is not fully committed (maybe in time, but not yet).
Come back and post here when that happens. I’ll question your testimony and your commitment to the Brethren. Then we’ll share a few good laughs and go roast some marshmallows somewhere. Fair enough?
We found that scouting was a great benefit to our oldest son when he was applying for colleges and scholarships. Being an Eagle Scout played a big part in getting his scholarships. When filling out the applications you are asked to list extra curricular activities and community service you have been involved with. My son was able to list Eagle and OA advancements. He was able to write about his Eagle project and the other Eagle projects that he helped with. When he went in for his scholarship interviews the interviewers asked about his Eagle project. One guy in our ward was recently accepted into Georgetown Law School. He said that at his interview his Eagle project some 12 years earlier played a big part in his interview.
It is harder to get into great colleges than it was when I was a teenager some 20+ years ago. Today’s kids are competing with brilliant international students and kids from small families who have the time and resources to pad their applications.
There is a lot of paper work with scouting. Living in today’s society excessive paper work is the norm. As a former Troop Committee Chair I can attest to that; but in comparison to military, college applications, scholarship applications; college and scholarship acceptance forms; and adoption applications, public school teaching forms etc… scouting paperwork pales in comparison.
As for uniforms. The boys need to get used to it. It is “dorky†to wear a Boy Scout shirt and it is also “dorky†wearing the “missionary uniformâ€.
Also Seth it is wonderful to finally agree with you in something
Ultimatly it is a moot point. The YM president spent more that a week at the world scouting headquarters discussing options of starting scouting in places where there is no scouting, and the possiblily of getting a charter seperate from the scouting in other countries (because they are run by catholics, muslim, etc). The church is expanding the scouting program.
I have read journals from early church members (men) who talk about the ‘extra’ programs that the church was starting that the priesthood should be doing…helping the poor, visiting and uplifting members, seeing to there needs… they were speaking of the Relief Society.
In the end the DTG program and the YM program does not fulfill the needs of the YM. It can’t. From a spiritual, physical, and educational standpoint.
The scout program forces YM to face fears, take on challanges, and become better citizins. The DTG was brought in to suppliment that with more religious instruction than the scout program has alone.
Just like the Priesthood and Relief Society work together to help the ward the scouts and DTG program work together to build the YM.
the YM president pointed out that there are fewer #’s of YM to go on missions in the years to come. There are fewer YM in the church then 10-15 years ago. The only ways to hold the numbers of missionaries is by activiation, retention, and conversion. Scouting can help retain YM in the youth program in a trained and safe envoirment. If the leaders follow scout trainings/guidelines the safety/liability issues are taken care of.
the YM president also pointed out there is a 40% increase in YM going on missions if they participate in an active scouting program & they have no intention to leave the program but to grow the churches participation in the program.
I did not mean to offend. I think we can agree that your comments might indicate a limited testimony of Scouting. I did not mean to impune any other aspect of your testimony.
My Scouting experience is mostly in Michigan, New York, Wisconsin and Minnesota, so I am not speaking with a Wasatch bias.
Brian made some excellent comments about a couple of methods of Scouting: the uniform and advancement. If the program is not incorporating the other six methods it is unlikely that these two are going to be sufficient or effective. Boy leadership is a key method both in accomplishing the goals of the Aaronic Priesthood and Scouting. I have seldom seen an effective Scouting program (within or outside the Church) without it.
The original question was “what place does Scouting have in the Church?”. I think its place is that of an excellent activity program to support the goals of the Aaronic Priesthood. In my first comment, I indicated that there are a lot of places around the world where it is not used, so it is not an absolute requirement. But without it, we are forced to invent something to fill its place. The Duty to God program does not replace it, but the two are excellent companions. There are a number of ‘requirements’ that match, but that is far from the whole of the Scouting program. The richness of the Scouting program includes the boys choosing and working toward activities. These activities include some element of advancement. They include service. They include leadership. They include opportunities to interact with quality adult leaders. Most of these elements are not in the Duty to God program.
When we fail to implement all of the aspects of the program and it is less than successful, is that lack of success a failure of the program or our failure to fully implement it. As I have mentioned, leaving the boy leadership aspect out will almost always result in less than satisfactory results (for everyone).
So, to JimBob and Talon (and anyone else reading who finds themselves in similar situations), it is not my intent to condemn you or your program or your efforts. But at the same time, if we are not implementing the whole program can we be quick to condemn the program? I know something about how time consuming and burdensome it can be to try to run that show with little to no help, I’ve been there and done that. But I think my efforts were worthwhile. I also saw the program work in the lives of the boys.
I’m sure you and the boys will be blessed for your efforts. I would challenge you to focus on youth leadership and see if you see a difference. It won’t happen overnight, probably more like 4 to 6 months to see results. But I think you will find them worthwhile.