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	<title>Comments on: I give out writing advice.  Bloggernacle begins laughing.</title>
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		<title>By: Jeremy [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9080</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9080</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Peavish&lt;/i&gt;?!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Yes, now on to the issue of spelling...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Peavish</i>?!</p>
<p>Yes, now on to the issue of spelling&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9079</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9079</guid>
		<description>Ivan,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Stupid me.  I, um, didn&#039;t notice that the article was &lt;i&gt;by you&lt;/i&gt;.  If I had, I would have been rather more diplomatic in my critique. (And how silly my references to &quot;the author&quot; come across... ) Sorry.  Certainly within a 700 word limit for a general audience, the example of the chair is perfectly adequate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Thanks again for addressing one of my pet peaves (one which will grow more peavish as I grade midterm essays in a couple of days...)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ivan,</p>
<p>Stupid me.  I, um, didn&#8217;t notice that the article was <i>by you</i>.  If I had, I would have been rather more diplomatic in my critique. (And how silly my references to &#8220;the author&#8221; come across&#8230; ) Sorry.  Certainly within a 700 word limit for a general audience, the example of the chair is perfectly adequate.</p>
<p>Thanks again for addressing one of my pet peaves (one which will grow more peavish as I grade midterm essays in a couple of days&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Wolfe [Member]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9078</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Wolfe [Member]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 16:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9078</guid>
		<description>Jeremy -&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I know.  Sometimes the chair doesn&#039;t even need to be mentioned or else relegated to a subordinate clause or something.  I had a 700 word maximum to work with, and I was told the article should be written in an informal style.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But otherwise, I totally agree with your comment.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy -</p>
<p>I know.  Sometimes the chair doesn&#8217;t even need to be mentioned or else relegated to a subordinate clause or something.  I had a 700 word maximum to work with, and I was told the article should be written in an informal style.  </p>
<p>But otherwise, I totally agree with your comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9077</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 03:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9077</guid>
		<description>Ivan,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Finally, a bloggernacle topic upon which you and I both agree!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One of my profs in grad school made us read a long article from the Atlantic or Harpers or something, in which the author presented a very thorough case for avoiding passive voice. Amazingly, not a single &quot;be&quot; form appeared anywhere in the article.  Perhaps most importantly, none of us missed it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which brings me to another point.  While I applaud the author of the article, I&#039;m not sure he demonstrates the underlying virtue of avoiding passive voice when possible.  One doesn&#039;t go about it by taking a sentence, like he does, and simply dancing around the &quot;be&quot; verb.  It&#039;s not a matter of the chair &quot;being&quot; in the room or the chair &quot;squatting&quot; in the room.  The latter comes off as a little pretentious to me. If one really internalizes the avoidance of passive voice, one steps back further and &lt;i&gt;thinks&lt;/i&gt; more rigorously, which would hopefully result in a sentence not wholly devoted to the chair.  To me, the chair wouldn&#039;t deserve a verb at all; one might notice it, or pass it, or sit upon it, or something.  The chair &quot;squatting&quot; seems to be like passive voice hiding behing extra syllables.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And of course, sometimes one simply can&#039;t avoid passive voice.  Usually one can, but every once in a while, as my prof counseled us, &quot;something just doesn&#039;t &#039;seem,&#039; or &#039;become,&#039; or &#039;strike one as.&#039;  It just plain &#039;is.&#039;&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ivan,</p>
<p>Finally, a bloggernacle topic upon which you and I both agree!</p>
<p>One of my profs in grad school made us read a long article from the Atlantic or Harpers or something, in which the author presented a very thorough case for avoiding passive voice. Amazingly, not a single &#8220;be&#8221; form appeared anywhere in the article.  Perhaps most importantly, none of us missed it.</p>
<p>Which brings me to another point.  While I applaud the author of the article, I&#8217;m not sure he demonstrates the underlying virtue of avoiding passive voice when possible.  One doesn&#8217;t go about it by taking a sentence, like he does, and simply dancing around the &#8220;be&#8221; verb.  It&#8217;s not a matter of the chair &#8220;being&#8221; in the room or the chair &#8220;squatting&#8221; in the room.  The latter comes off as a little pretentious to me. If one really internalizes the avoidance of passive voice, one steps back further and <i>thinks</i> more rigorously, which would hopefully result in a sentence not wholly devoted to the chair.  To me, the chair wouldn&#8217;t deserve a verb at all; one might notice it, or pass it, or sit upon it, or something.  The chair &#8220;squatting&#8221; seems to be like passive voice hiding behing extra syllables.</p>
<p>And of course, sometimes one simply can&#8217;t avoid passive voice.  Usually one can, but every once in a while, as my prof counseled us, &#8220;something just doesn&#8217;t &#8216;seem,&#8217; or &#8216;become,&#8217; or &#8216;strike one as.&#8217;  It just plain &#8216;is.&#8217;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Wolfe [Member]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9076</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Wolfe [Member]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9076</guid>
		<description>Actually, as I crack open my Greek new Testament, just to double check, I find that some of the phrases in the Lord&#039;s prayer are passive imperative.  Some just happen to use a &quot;to be&quot; verb for other reasons, but some are passive.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So, you win there.  Next time my students ask me how to write a prayer, I&#039;ll tell them the passive voice is fine.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, as I crack open my Greek new Testament, just to double check, I find that some of the phrases in the Lord&#8217;s prayer are passive imperative.  Some just happen to use a &#8220;to be&#8221; verb for other reasons, but some are passive.</p>
<p>So, you win there.  Next time my students ask me how to write a prayer, I&#8217;ll tell them the passive voice is fine.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mansfield [Member]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9075</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mansfield [Member]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 07:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9075</guid>
		<description>Dang it, Ivan, I&#039;m not pointing to Latin as a source for the New Testament; give me a little credit.  It&#039;s just a language that has very identifiable verb forms, and the New Testament is a familiar text for us.  As for aorist imperative, I know nothing of Greek, but looking up the term, aorist appears to be a matter of tense (such as present, perfect, future, etc.), not voice.  (I see Greek has active, passive, and middle voice.  Interesting.)  Mood (indicative, subjunctive, imperative, etc.) is a third thing.  Verbs can have imperative mood and either active or passive voice.  In my Latin grammar, I&#039;m looking at tables of active imperative and passive imperative conjugations side by side.  You will have to tell me how correct this is, but I find one paper on the web identifying &lt;i&gt;genetheto&lt;/i&gt;, the verb used in &quot;thy will be done,&quot; as aorist passive imperative of &lt;i&gt;ginomai&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Getting back to English, what do you identify as the subject of the sentence &quot;Thy will be done&quot;?  I claim it is &quot;thy will,&quot; not whoever or whatever is supposed to make the Father&#039;s will done.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.gospelgrace.com/webest/Christs_Kingdom_Is_Future_VolumeI.rtf
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dang it, Ivan, I&#8217;m not pointing to Latin as a source for the New Testament; give me a little credit.  It&#8217;s just a language that has very identifiable verb forms, and the New Testament is a familiar text for us.  As for aorist imperative, I know nothing of Greek, but looking up the term, aorist appears to be a matter of tense (such as present, perfect, future, etc.), not voice.  (I see Greek has active, passive, and middle voice.  Interesting.)  Mood (indicative, subjunctive, imperative, etc.) is a third thing.  Verbs can have imperative mood and either active or passive voice.  In my Latin grammar, I&#8217;m looking at tables of active imperative and passive imperative conjugations side by side.  You will have to tell me how correct this is, but I find one paper on the web identifying <i>genetheto</i>, the verb used in &#8220;thy will be done,&#8221; as aorist passive imperative of <i>ginomai</i>.</p>
<p>Getting back to English, what do you identify as the subject of the sentence &#8220;Thy will be done&#8221;?  I claim it is &#8220;thy will,&#8221; not whoever or whatever is supposed to make the Father&#8217;s will done.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gospelgrace.com/webest/Christs_Kingdom_Is_Future_VolumeI.rtf" rel="nofollow">http://www.gospelgrace.com/webest/Christs_Kingdom_Is_Future_VolumeI.rtf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Wolfe [Member]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9074</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Wolfe [Member]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 05:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9074</guid>
		<description>John -&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
????  In the Greek (which is the language of the New Testament, not Latin) it&#039;s aorist imperative. As for the cookbooks - well, that&#039;s what I said, so it appears you agree with me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But I don&#039;t even know why we&#039;re arguing this.  Please read Richard Lanham&#039;s &quot;Analyzing Prose&quot; and then we can continue this.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John -</p>
<p>????  In the Greek (which is the language of the New Testament, not Latin) it&#8217;s aorist imperative. As for the cookbooks &#8211; well, that&#8217;s what I said, so it appears you agree with me.</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t even know why we&#8217;re arguing this.  Please read Richard Lanham&#8217;s &#8220;Analyzing Prose&#8221; and then we can continue this.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mansfield [Member]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9073</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mansfield [Member]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 04:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9073</guid>
		<description>The cookbooks say &quot;[you] preheat the oven,&quot; not &quot;the oven be preheated [by you].&quot;  In Latin, &quot;hallowed be thy name&quot; and &quot;thy will be done&quot; are rendered &quot;sanctificetur nomen tuum&quot; and &quot;fiat voluntas tua.&quot;  Sanctificetur and fiat are plainly passive conjugations.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cookbooks say &#8220;[you] preheat the oven,&#8221; not &#8220;the oven be preheated [by you].&#8221;  In Latin, &#8220;hallowed be thy name&#8221; and &#8220;thy will be done&#8221; are rendered &#8220;sanctificetur nomen tuum&#8221; and &#8220;fiat voluntas tua.&#8221;  Sanctificetur and fiat are plainly passive conjugations.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Wolfe [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9072</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Wolfe [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9072</guid>
		<description>here&#039;s an interesting view on the passive voice:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGI1ZGExYTQ3ZjBkMzg3YTFiZThlNmIxYjQzMDE2MGQ=
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>here&#8217;s an interesting view on the passive voice:</p>
<p><a href="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGI1ZGExYTQ3ZjBkMzg3YTFiZThlNmIxYjQzMDE2MGQ" rel="nofollow">http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGI1ZGExYTQ3ZjBkMzg3YTFiZThlNmIxYjQzMDE2MGQ</a>=</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Wolfe [Visitor]</title>
		<link>http://www.millennialstar.org/i-give-out-writing-advice-bloggernacle-begins-laughing/comment-page-1/#comment-9071</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Wolfe [Visitor]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beta.millennialstar.org/?p=367#comment-9071</guid>
		<description>John -&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
they may look passive, but it isn&#039;t.  I can&#039;t excuse your ignorance of grammar.  That&#039;s like saying &quot;that looks like water, perhaps I&#039;ll drink it&quot; even though it&#039;s really some deadly acid or poison.  Imperatives always leave the subject out.  For example, Second person imperatives that are found in places like cookbooks always say &quot;pre-heat the oven to 350 degrees.  Measure 2/3 cup flour&quot; etc. - which really means &quot;YOU should pre-heat the oven&quot; - by their grammatical nature, imperatives leave out the subject.  You can&#039;t convince me the passive voice is okay by citing sentences that aren&#039;t in the passive voice, sorry.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The reason teachers tell students to avoid the passive voice is because, by and large, students have very little control over their own writing.  And only people who really have control over their own writing can effectively use the passive voice.  My simple rule is not absolute:  It was meant as informal advice to help students gain control over their own writing.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here&#039;s an analogy:  When practicing Guitar, sometimes I practice without using my pointer finger, and I often reccomend this to friends as well.  Does that mean I think no one should use their pointer finger when playing guitar?  No, but doing so can show you how much you over-rely on that finger, and when you go back to using it, you&#039;re a better player because your other fingers have become stronger.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Same with avoiding the &quot;to be&quot; verbs:  It&#039;s a great way to learn how to gain control of your writing, as well as show you (or anyone) just how much we overuse the passive voice and &quot;to be&quot; verbs in general.  Of course, once that&#039;s accomplished, you can then go back to using it - only this time you will use it more effectively and only when needed, rather than as a default setting (as with most students).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John -</p>
<p>they may look passive, but it isn&#8217;t.  I can&#8217;t excuse your ignorance of grammar.  That&#8217;s like saying &#8220;that looks like water, perhaps I&#8217;ll drink it&#8221; even though it&#8217;s really some deadly acid or poison.  Imperatives always leave the subject out.  For example, Second person imperatives that are found in places like cookbooks always say &#8220;pre-heat the oven to 350 degrees.  Measure 2/3 cup flour&#8221; etc. &#8211; which really means &#8220;YOU should pre-heat the oven&#8221; &#8211; by their grammatical nature, imperatives leave out the subject.  You can&#8217;t convince me the passive voice is okay by citing sentences that aren&#8217;t in the passive voice, sorry.</p>
<p>The reason teachers tell students to avoid the passive voice is because, by and large, students have very little control over their own writing.  And only people who really have control over their own writing can effectively use the passive voice.  My simple rule is not absolute:  It was meant as informal advice to help students gain control over their own writing.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an analogy:  When practicing Guitar, sometimes I practice without using my pointer finger, and I often reccomend this to friends as well.  Does that mean I think no one should use their pointer finger when playing guitar?  No, but doing so can show you how much you over-rely on that finger, and when you go back to using it, you&#8217;re a better player because your other fingers have become stronger.</p>
<p>Same with avoiding the &#8220;to be&#8221; verbs:  It&#8217;s a great way to learn how to gain control of your writing, as well as show you (or anyone) just how much we overuse the passive voice and &#8220;to be&#8221; verbs in general.  Of course, once that&#8217;s accomplished, you can then go back to using it &#8211; only this time you will use it more effectively and only when needed, rather than as a default setting (as with most students).</p>
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