Comments on: How to Give a Great Sacrament Meeting Talk – Part 0 of 5 (Introduction) http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/ Thu, 09 Feb 2012 01:51:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ivan Wolfe http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30800 Ivan Wolfe Thu, 05 Jun 2008 03:03:28 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30800 Mark N. - I admire Nibley, and count "Approaching Zion" as one of the most important books I've read. But, on this, he's wrong. First off, he's conflating Aristotle with the Sophists. Nibley seems to be taking an extreme form of Socrates' disdain for the Sophists and putting it onto every practitioner of rhetoric ever (Even Socrates didn't have that dismal a view of rhetoric: in the Phaedrus, Socrates argued that rhetoric can be a good thing). But Nibley also doesn't realize that every book he ever wrote used rhetoric. Rhetoric is not some specialized realm of study - it's one of the few subjects that everyone makes use of pretty much all the time. If Nibley ever tried to persuade (which he did), he engaged in rhetoric. Nibley was a smart man, but he clearly never truly studied what rhetoric was - instead he just took Socrates from "Gorgias" and took it to an extreme that even Socrates wouldn't recognize. Mark N. -

I admire Nibley, and count “Approaching Zion” as one of the most important books I’ve read. But, on this, he’s wrong.

First off, he’s conflating Aristotle with the Sophists. Nibley seems to be taking an extreme form of Socrates’ disdain for the Sophists and putting it onto every practitioner of rhetoric ever (Even Socrates didn’t have that dismal a view of rhetoric: in the Phaedrus, Socrates argued that rhetoric can be a good thing).

But Nibley also doesn’t realize that every book he ever wrote used rhetoric. Rhetoric is not some specialized realm of study – it’s one of the few subjects that everyone makes use of pretty much all the time. If Nibley ever tried to persuade (which he did), he engaged in rhetoric.

Nibley was a smart man, but he clearly never truly studied what rhetoric was – instead he just took Socrates from “Gorgias” and took it to an extreme that even Socrates wouldn’t recognize.

]]> By: Mark N. http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30787 Mark N. Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:33:01 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30787 Is this the right place to bring up Hugh Nibley's version of the definition of "rhetoric"?: <blockquote>Aristotle defines it as the "art of persuasion," the technical skill by which one convinces people — convinces, that is, everybody of anything for a fee, according to Clement of Alexandria. It is the training and skill by which one can make unimportant things seem important, according to Plato, or, to quote Clement again, "make false opinions seem true by means of words."</blockquote> Is this the right place to bring up Hugh Nibley’s version of the definition of “rhetoric”?:

Aristotle defines it as the “art of persuasion,” the technical skill by which one convinces people — convinces, that is, everybody of anything for a fee, according to Clement of Alexandria. It is the training and skill by which one can make unimportant things seem important, according to Plato, or, to quote Clement again, “make false opinions seem true by means of words.”

]]> By: Floyd the Wonderdog http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30779 Floyd the Wonderdog Sat, 31 May 2008 11:57:14 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30779 I no longer tell jokes in my talks. I am a naturally funny guy as anyone who has seen me can tell. (rim shot) One ward I was speaking in had an ASL interpreter sitting in front of the speaker to the right. He would interpret for the deaf members. I told a joke and he literally fell off his chair. I had to wait for him to regain his composure before I could continue. But even so, I can't avoid letting a little laugh in now and then. I no longer tell jokes in my talks. I am a naturally funny guy as anyone who has seen me can tell. (rim shot) One ward I was speaking in had an ASL interpreter sitting in front of the speaker to the right. He would interpret for the deaf members. I told a joke and he literally fell off his chair. I had to wait for him to regain his composure before I could continue. But even so, I can’t avoid letting a little laugh in now and then.

]]> By: Saint Holiday http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30777 Saint Holiday Fri, 30 May 2008 21:38:06 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30777 Perhaps you might touch upon how we could employ the gifts of prophecy and tongues in our sermons. Perhaps you might touch upon how we could employ the gifts of prophecy and tongues in our sermons.

]]> By: Jedd http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30775 Jedd Wed, 28 May 2008 23:04:37 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30775 A while back, I submitted a Millenial Star guest post titled "The 10 Commandments of Speaking in Church." Here's the link: http://www.millennialstar.org/2005/03/02/guest-post-the-ten-commandments-of-speaking-in-church/ (For some reason, some of the text is garbled.) I'd be interested in what points you agree or disagree with. A while back, I submitted a Millenial Star guest post titled “The 10 Commandments of Speaking in Church.” Here’s the link: http://www.millennialstar.org/2005/03/02/guest-post-the-ten-commandments-of-speaking-in-church/

(For some reason, some of the text is garbled.)

I’d be interested in what points you agree or disagree with.

]]> By: Ivan Wolfe http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30774 Ivan Wolfe Wed, 28 May 2008 21:54:37 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30774 William Morris - that will fit under "style" - so I'll get to it. (interestingly, a large chunk of my dissertation deals with British writer, designer, and communist William Morris). All- Part one should go up tomorrow sometime. William Morris -

that will fit under “style” – so I’ll get to it.

(interestingly, a large chunk of my dissertation deals with British writer, designer, and communist William Morris).

All-
Part one should go up tomorrow sometime.

]]> By: William Morris http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30773 William Morris Wed, 28 May 2008 17:20:28 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30773 How about a post on what makes analogies, aphorisms, parables, metaphors, etc. compelling, useful and appropriate? How about a post on what makes analogies, aphorisms, parables, metaphors, etc. compelling, useful and appropriate?

]]> By: Sarah http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30772 Sarah Tue, 27 May 2008 01:46:07 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30772 I say that you should emphasize some of the basic mistakes people make (and how to avoid making them.) I used to think that it was silly to keep saying that, e.g., a testimony is not a "thankimony" or a travel log or a detailed medical history, until I started listening more (and reading novels less) in Sacrament meeting. Similarly, you can't say, for instance, "don't start your talk with a humorous anecdote regarding your failure to avoid being given this assignment," frequently enough. I say that you should emphasize some of the basic mistakes people make (and how to avoid making them.) I used to think that it was silly to keep saying that, e.g., a testimony is not a “thankimony” or a travel log or a detailed medical history, until I started listening more (and reading novels less) in Sacrament meeting. Similarly, you can’t say, for instance, “don’t start your talk with a humorous anecdote regarding your failure to avoid being given this assignment,” frequently enough.

]]> By: Ivan Wolfe http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30771 Ivan Wolfe Tue, 27 May 2008 00:50:06 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30771 Ray (just missed you while writing my comment) - exactly. I might even quote part of your comment there later in the series. To all - I hope I get more feedback like this as the series progresses. Great comments, all. Ray (just missed you while writing my comment) -

exactly. I might even quote part of your comment there later in the series.

To all – I hope I get more feedback like this as the series progresses. Great comments, all.

]]> By: Ivan Wolfe http://www.millennialstar.org/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/comment-page-1/#comment-30770 Ivan Wolfe Tue, 27 May 2008 00:47:56 +0000 http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/05/25/how-to-give-a-great-sacrament-meeting-talk-part-0-of-5-introduction/#comment-30770 Bookslinger - quibble noted, and I agree (I hope the series, as it progresses, will answer some of your concerns). Part of this has to do with how "persuasion" is defined - and part 1 will, in part, tackle the problem of defining key terms. Ardis - well, there will be some examples. Perhaps I'll add in a few more than I originally planned. Geoff B - originality is important, but it needs to be tempered (BiV notes this as well). I've seen some very "original" sacrament meeting talks that made me wish for a boring, dry speaker who would teach some easily understood principle. On the other hand, there does need to be some creativity in the talk - we should give a talk that no one else could give. The spirit may be speaking through us, but we aren't all automatons, and if we give speeches that anyone else could have given - well, I'll discuss that soon enough. Floyd - Noted. I will stress that. It's the most important part, after all. Giving a good talk will allow the spirit in, but the spirit is more important than any oratorical power. BiV - hopefully I'll have the whole series up before your June 13th deadline. Bookslinger -
quibble noted, and I agree (I hope the series, as it progresses, will answer some of your concerns). Part of this has to do with how “persuasion” is defined – and part 1 will, in part, tackle the problem of defining key terms.

Ardis -

well, there will be some examples. Perhaps I’ll add in a few more than I originally planned.

Geoff B -

originality is important, but it needs to be tempered (BiV notes this as well). I’ve seen some very “original” sacrament meeting talks that made me wish for a boring, dry speaker who would teach some easily understood principle. On the other hand, there does need to be some creativity in the talk – we should give a talk that no one else could give. The spirit may be speaking through us, but we aren’t all automatons, and if we give speeches that anyone else could have given – well, I’ll discuss that soon enough.

Floyd -

Noted. I will stress that. It’s the most important part, after all. Giving a good talk will allow the spirit in, but the spirit is more important than any oratorical power.

BiV –
hopefully I’ll have the whole series up before your June 13th deadline.

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