We are beginning a new feature here at M* called Friday Forum. We will select carefully a scripture of the week to discuss. So dear readers, we invite you to put on your thinking caps and give us your own thoughtful opinions and unique insights.
We are beginning a new feature here at M* called Friday Forum. We will select carefully a scripture of the week to discuss. So dear readers, we invite you to put on your thinking caps and give us your own thoughtful opinions and unique insights.
Of course dogs don’t go to heaven. Moroni 10:33 clearly says so.
Is this real or Photoshop? Either way, it’s really funny.
I wonder if mean dogs go to heaven??
If you look closely at the Baptist signs you can see that the letter overlap the grid of the sign carrier. They are also using a proportional font. This is a very clever Photoshop. Unfortunately they didn’t spell check…it is funny though…
I think you mean Presbyterian.
Joanna, this was hilarious! Probably too hilarious to discuss seriously, but I’ll give it a shot. Mormons don’t believe in heaven as described above. Animals are “intelligences” who are participating in the earthly experience to fulfill their purpose (speculating on what that purpose is seems a waste of time to me). After they die, they go on to do something else, just as we do. All intelligences have always existed and will always exist. Whether or not we will see our dog Fluffy in the spirit world or after the resurrection is a matter of complete speculation — that has not been revealed to us. I like to think we will.
Mike, good one. But what about Fluffy?
Mike Parker, how do you reconcile the wording in Moroni 10:33 wherein it says, “that ye become holy, without spot”?
Clearly, to me, this scripture says we don’t need spot to become holy.
I’m not hating on dogs, mind you. Just trying to figure out how fido and spot can secure a place in heaven.
Let us consult Revelation 22:14–15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
You see! Of those who don’t enter the city of god, dogs are first on the list!
@Duke of Earl Grey
Are you sure the word dog in this scripture isn’t just an appellation for politicians??
Back to the subject at hand. Our scripture for today is Moses 3:5
“And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;”
All creatures were created spirtually by our Father in Heaven. I think that they have souls, but are not accountable.
Joseph Smith said, “Says one, “I cannot believe in the salvation of beasts.” Any man who would tell you that this could not be, would tell you that the revelations are not true. John heard the words of the beasts giving glory to God, and understood them. God who made the beasts could understand every language spoken by them. The four beasts were four of the most noble animals that had filled the measure of their creation, and had been saved from other worlds, because they were perfect: they were like angels in their sphere. We are not told where they came from, and I do not know; but they were seen and heard by John praising and glorifying God.”
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 291
I love that quote from Joseph Smith, Joanna.
Good one MIke and Duke and Brian. Hah! You three had me going for a moment.
Seanette- I got it from one of my old Jewish ladies on a Sephardic genealogy yahoo group. Please see this link for more information:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/dogheaven.asp
Carol-you are right, it is more of a question.
Thanks for stopping by Craig and giving us your expert opinion on computer photo shopping.
Now for serious conversation. Sorry Geoff for being too quirky and not serious enough. Actually I am serious about this topic. The signs were an attention grabber.
In your humble opinion, dear reader, would your mansion in the next life include animals?
Geoff btw, I like your comment. Right on the button imho.
If my dogs can’t go to heaven, it won’t be heaven for me. Period.
Friday forum, eh? I liked it better when we called them Firestorms. POACHERS.
Poaching? Not at all. I would harldy call animal theology a scriptural firestorm. Hence, we call them forums.
In terms of poaching, well, I think BCC gave up the Friday Firestorm mantle, so, like Elisha, we have taken up the mantle. There’s a perfectly good scriptural justification in 2 Kings 2:13. (I read that scripture a lot because soon after some kids make fun of Elisha for being bald and then they get eaten by a bear — power to the follicly challenged!)
In terms of animals having souls, it seems self-evident that if they have always existed and always will exist (like all intelligences) they have two parts, the corruptible Earthly part that dies and the incorruptible spiritual part that lives on. So, you can call that a soul if you’d like. What happens to their spirits after their bodies die? Don’t know, but I’d like to find out some day.
Joanna: awesome.
Here’s another angle. I’m not particularly attached to any living animals, but I do enjoy eating animal food products. John 21:13 clearly indicates that a resurrected being can eat mortal fish. But can anyone eat resurrected fish?
Sadly, I suspect not, based on Alma 11:44:
“…and even there shall not so much as a scale of their skins be lost…”
If animals are around, I don’t think it will be so they can be eaten.
I’m sympathetic to the idea of pet owners enjoying “that same sociality” they enjoy with their pets here, but I agree with Geoff that we can’t say for certain.
Relax, Steve. The Friday Forum was a weekly event in my release-time seminary and at the Mesa institute. Maybe it’s an Arizona thing. Besides, there’s clearly no YouTube video.
For those of us with allergies it’s a good thing our resurrected bodies will be perfected or there would be plenty of runny noses and sneezing in heaven with the animals.
Geoff B., no no one takes the honor of the Friday Firestorm mantle to himself but as called by Steve.
I once wrote-up a thing on animal spirits and the ramifications of such an idea.
@J. Stapley
I remember that post. It was a good one. Thanks for the reminder.
AHLDuke- agree. I feel the exact same way about my cat.
Wow! The-great-and-mighty-Steve Evans! I am a big fan. No poaching here, instead great minds think alike. Remember not a firestorm, a forum. Thanks for stopping by and I hope you grace my presence /posts again, thus boosting my credibility
Ben- I am a carnivore too. I think that vegetables and fruits will be sooo much better as they will have extreme freshness and taste. We will be like, “gross steak!”
Doug-yes perfected people do not have runny noses and eyes.
J.Stapley- I am also a huge fan. Thank you for the link to your wonderful article. Good stuff.
Here’s a direct link for making church signs.
And if all animals go to heaven, does that mean the entiregoogolplex of mosquitos, cockroaches, dust mites, rats, fleas, intestinal parasites, and all those icky things you find under rocks who’ve lived and died since The Fall, too?
Hey, if it’s true, it would be cool to see resurrected Tyranosaurus Rexes, and Tricerotopses. But all the icky animals? Every individual of every species? Won’t the Celestial Kingdom get crowded?
JAB: Didn’t Joseph Smith also say something about how our animals and pets will also judge us in the resurrection based on how we treated them?
Bookslinger, I have thought of those creatures as well. I do not have an opinion. I imagine that if so, they will not be feasting on me. That would not be my heaven. If they munch on Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc… I say yippee to that idea.
Dinosaurs and prehistoric and extinct animals would be so cool. That would be my nerdy childhood dream to visit that part of the kingdom. Whatever the next life brings, it will not be crowded. I believe God has the power to expand space to what size it needs to be. If time has no end, then space would have no end as well.
I do not know the answer to that one. If you know, send it our way. I googled your question and found a few good quotes from others. Here is a sampling:
David O Mckay said, “A true Latter-day Saint is kind to animals, is kind to every created thing, for God created all.” (October 1951; quoted in Gerald E. Jones, “The Gospel and Animals,” p. 65)
Joseph Fielding Smith said, “Animals do have spirits and … through the redemption made by our Savior they will come forth in the resurrection to enjoy the blessing of immortal life.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 2, p. 48)
Marlin Jensen said, “Given affection and care, they return affection and care generously and consistently. People whose lives include relationships with animals are usually happier. For me at least, heaven will not be heaven unless the animal kingdom is part of God’s kingdom.” (Living After the Manner of Happiness, The Ensign, December 2002)
Thanks for stopping by to comment. We always appreciate your insights.
The Catholic signs are better, but both get a FAIL for missing a perfect opportunity to use the word “bitches” in its proper context.
I’m content to think that animals either have no spirits or are extensions of an earth that has a spirit.
Ok Brian. I have no idea either, but my cat Oliver thinks he is a people.
My dove, Ava, thinks the same thing.
My cat, Felix, KNOWS he’s a people.
LOL! Nice to hear from another cat person Seanette. Thanks for stopping by to comment.
Your cat has a very low self-esteem (for a cat). Most felines think they’re much, much better than people.
Brian- LOL, I can’t speak for Seanette’s cat, but Oliver’s is a ragdoll (breed). Ragdolls act differently than most cats.
Anne-Thanks for stopping by to comment and to read. I am glad you found your way over to us. I always enjoy reading your posts on MM.
I’m reminded of a Calvin & Hobbes strip, that went something like this:
C: Do Tigers go to Heaven? It wouldn’t be much of a heaven without tigers. But people wouldn’t be happy if they had to always worry about being eaten by tigers. I know! Maybe tigers don’t eat people in Heaven!
H: Then _we_ wouldn’t be happy.
LOL I remember than one Mel. C and H was brilliant.