Darth Vader’s Redemption

Note: The following post contains discussion of things that happen in Episode III. If you haven’t seen it yet and don’t want to be spoiled, consider yourself warned.

Normally, I’d try to keep my geek-ness to myself until you know me better, but alas, this has been on my mind, and I’d like to discuss it. So, embrace your inner geek (really, it’s a lot of fun), and join me in this discussion.

Was Darth Vader’s redemption after his death-bed repentance justified?

His arrogance led him to the dark side. He thought there was no way he could be wrong, but of course it made sense (to him) that everyone else was wrong. When Palpatine told him that, yes, he was the Sith lord they were all after, at first Anakin said (paraphrasing), “Hey, you’re the bad guy we’ve been after!” but then he promptly joined him. It took hardly any effort on Palpatine’s part, but then again, he’d been gaining Ani’s trust for years.

But why did Ani listen to him over Obi Wan, who he’d been with even longer? I assume over the years that Jedi training includes more than just how to handle a light saber and how to sense the bad guy in the next room. Ani had been borderline bad for years, and Obi Wan stayed with him, loved him, and defended his questionable actions to the council (though it probably would have been better to come up with some sort of intervention – Obi Wan was guilty of blindness to Ani’s turning right in front of him).

Yet Ani continued down his reckless path, not caring about anyone but himself. Sure, it’s against the rules to enter romantic entanglements, but the rules don’t apply me. Hey, Padme, let’s get married. Sure, my Master has loved me and cared for me and taught me, but why should I listen to him? I’m the Chosen One. Killing little kids is certainly the right thing.

After Anakin told the Jedi Council that, hey, Palpatine is Darth Sidious, and Mace Windu had Palpatine at saberpoint, Anakin knew exactly what he was doing when he chose who he would save.

Anakin wasn’t duped. He wasn’t tricked. Yes, he thought he was doing the right thing, but he thought so because he chose to ignore those who loved him and focus only on his immediate needs, his own gratification. Sure, he says Jedi’s don’t care for themselves, they only care about others, but he hadn’t lived that way for years. He murdered people. He murdered children. He soon destroyed entire worlds, all to achieve his own desires.

So, ultimately, in Episode VI (Return of the Jedi) he kills the Emperor, thus killing himself. The one selfless thing he did, saving his son? Maybe. I had always thought that, yes, it was a sincere turning, that he finally realized that what he’d done for all those years really wasn’t good. After all, his spirit (or whatever the proper Star Wars universe term is) was standing next to Yoda and Obi Wan, implying that he is a good guy now. However, just because he protected his son doesn’t mean he really turned. He loved Padme, too. Sure, he attacked her, but that was a very impulsive act. The thing with Luke wasn’t as emotionally charged or fast.

So, no, his redemption was not justified. He’d killed at least millions and probably billions. He’d tortured people. He brought suffering to the galaxy. And just killing the Emperor, just to save his own son, is supposed to erase all that? No, I don’t buy it. Such an ending weakens the entire saga.

Yes, he is a tragic character. But he chose his path. He chose arrogance and his own desires. He wasn’t tricked into the dark side. He chose it. Episode III makes it clear that he knew exactly what he was choosing.

51 thoughts on “Darth Vader’s Redemption

  1. Was Darth Vader’s redemption after his death-bed repentance justified?

    Nope.

  2. Great post Tanya. Before I went to see Episode 3 I postulated with my family this very same issue: that the movie would succeed to destroying the already slim believability of Episode 6 and turn the whole thing into a farce.

    Now, having seen it, I think that my hypothesis was correct. Lucas ruined the original series with these new episodes. Episode 3 was a good movie in many respects (though the first half of it sucked lemons, and the computer graphics were often pathetic), but its influence on the rest of the story is the real tragedy!

  3. Darth Vader certainly killed many, but he was not the one who gave the order for the destruction of Alderaan. That was Grand Moff Tarkin, whose foul stench Princess Leia recognized when she was brought on board the Death Star. So millions or billions of deaths are not on Darth Vader’s hands, as far as we know. Just some torturing, and some slaughtering of innocent little children.

    Also, keep in mind that his repentance was not a “death-bed” repentance. His repentance is what caused his death, by exposing him to the Emperor’s attack. If he had not chosen to repent, he would have survived and Luke would have died. So I think there is more weight to his repentance seeing as how he was willing to sacrifice his own life turn back to the light side rather than continue his life on the dark side.

  4. In favor of Darth Vader’s redemption, I could say that according to some interpretations of LDS doctrine, he was actually doing the kids a favor by killing them… Since they all went straight to the Jedi Celestial Kingdom. And in killing the Emperor, he didn’t just save his son, but brought freedom and peace back to the galaxy.

    But in reality, everything I just said above is a load of crap. Ani/Vader is in hell. But is he a son of perdition? Probably. He did, after all, deny the Star Wars Holy Ghost (The Force) after having gone through the temple (Jedi = temple endowed?).

    Alright, I’ll stop before this gets too crazy!

  5. Lol, Bob, it’s always funny to see what happens when you take the Star Wars/LDS connection a step further than is comfortable. In that same vein, isn’t Vader a very good candidate for perdition? I think he’s a type and shadow of Cain– the stooge of the devil who ultimately kills his brother (Obi Wan) and then wanders the earth (galaxy) disfigured. After that kind of life, one good act is not going to redeem the guy. Even if the punishment is “greater than he can bear.”

    I actually never bought the redemption. When I heard Lucas, preparing to film the new trilogy, saying that this whole saga is about the fall and redemption of Vader, I was shocked. Is there another movie out there that shows the redemption of Vader? Oh, you mean the entire trilogy is about that two minute sequence where Vader takes pity on his son and tosses his cruel boss over a banister? That’s it? Geez, I wish redemption were so easy in real life.

    Man, I really need to go see Episode III.

  6. Jonathan, yes, I agree it was not really a death-bed repentance. I stand corrected on that. So, instead, say he gave his life to protect his son. An improvement, yes, but I still stand by my original claim that it was hardly enough to redeem him after years of evil. And was it still even a selfish desire, protecting something personal to him as opposed to just doing the right thing to do the right thing?

    As for not being the one who gave the order on Alderaan, true, but I have a hard time believing Tarkin did that without Vader’s blessing.

  7. Part of the problem with Darth Vader’s redemption might be linked to a flawed explanation of his fall into evilness. Steve Evans said in his review of the film that he disliked “Anakin’s too rapid descent to the Dark Side.” I agree with that synopsis. Earlier in the film, when Obi-wan Kenobi thanks Anakin for saving his hide from Count Dookoo (or however his name is spelled), it is mentioned that Anakin has already saved Obi-wan eight or nine times. It seems to me that if Anakin and Obi-wan had that much positive experience behind them, that Anakin would be much more converted and much less “confused” about his feelings towards good and evil. It seems even less likely that Anakin could that quickly turn into a bloodthirsty fiend ready to kill his erstwhile friend and small children as well.

    Overall it just doesn’t seem to me that Anakin’s demonstrated immaturity and impetuousness match his intelligence or his purported level of personal experience with the Jedi.

    Despite all this, I love the films. This third film clinched it for me and suddenly the first two films of this latest trilogy were much better and interesting to me when previously all I had was a bitter taste in my mouth regarding them. I may not be convinced of the redemption of Darth Vader — but I am convinced of the redemption of George Lucas.

  8. What if we regard his killing of the Emperor/saving of Luke in EP6 as not the sum total of his repentance, but only a symbol of it?

  9. I see two issues to consider when evaluating Vader’s redemption. The first is the sincerity of his repentance. The second is the issue of what would be required of him to repent.

    The only reason deathbed repentances are considered invalid is because they are insincere. Only when confronted with death does the individual choose to change his ways. If they were not faced with death, they would go on as before. And if their life was spared, they would most likely go on as before despite their repentance.

    However, if the repentance is sincere, it is just as valid as if it had occurred years before. After all, in the parable of the laborers, all the laborers in the Lord’s vineyard were paid the same, even those who arrived right at the end. This brings us to Vader. How sincere was his repentance? Since it was not a deathbed repentance, but instead actually caused his own death, one can assume that his actions were sincere.

    But was it repentance for all his evil deeds, or simply pity for his son? Clearly pity for his son was part of it, but I believe that seeing his son’s suffering was simply the last straw. As Padme and Luke believed, there was still good in him. He simply did not have the courage to follow his conscience and break from his evil path. But finally he found that courage. He wasn’t asking to be a hero. He knew it might cost him his life. Yet he finally chose to do what was right. I have no doubt that, as he lay dying after turning back to the light, Vader truly regretted all his evil actions. If he had his life to live over, he would choose a different path. So his repentance, in my mind, was sincere.

    But his actions were so evil, and their magnitude so great (the slaughtering of the children perhaps the most heinous), that one wonders if more would be required of his repentance to fully redeem him. I would say yes. Repentance is a process, not a moment. Yet we must remember that one’s repentance does not redeem; it is the atonement that redeems. If his repentance was sincere, he would not be penalized for having died before he could prove it through his actions. The question is, if he had continued living, would he have acted in accordance with true repentance. Again, I believe this is the case.

    No individual can redeem himself. He can simply show enough understanding of his sins and have a sufficient change of heart to become worthy of mercy. From this point of view, I think Vader was worthy of mercy in his redemption.

    Of course, from our doctrinal point of view, the questions remain about the two sins where forgiveness is in question. Did Vader sin against the Force? He was probably too young and arrogant to have had a full knowledge of the light side. He turned because he thought it could help the woman he loved. So I don’t think he is a Son of Perdition. And murder? Can it be forgiven? Since Vader had to die in order to save Luke and turn back to the light side, maybe even George Lucas believes in blood atonement…

  10. Hi,
    Your friendly doctrine police here. You can’t blaspheme against the Holy Ghost unless you’ve been sealed up to Eternal Life as in having your calling and election made sure. The mere temple endowment is not enough to get you in that much trouble.

  11. Jonathan, I like your thoughts. I’m still not convinced his redemption was justified – too easy, too fast, after he’d knowingly gone too far. I agree his repentance was probably sincere. However, there would still need to be consequences for his actions, and one of those consequences would be that he cannot be redeemed or at least would need to do more to balance out the evil he perpetuated in the galaxy. There doesn’t seem to be a Christ in the Star Wars universe, but perhaps there is karma or post-death something. But to see him standing next to Yoda and Obi Wan still seems ridiculous.

    But, you’ve given me more to think about.

  12. Conversation yesterday between me and my 5 year old:

    Son: Devin doesn’t behave. He breaks the school rules.
    Me: That’s too bad. (pause) Do you ever break the rules?
    Son: No, only bad guys break the rules.
    Me: Sometimes good people make mistakes. What do good people do when the make a mistake?
    Son: Try and fix it?
    Me: Yes. And….
    Son: (Pause)
    Me: They say……..I’m…..
    Son: Sorry!
    Me: Right! And then they…Try…
    Son: Try not to do it again!

    If Darth Vader hadn’t died, but had lived another 40 years, what would he have done with those additional years?

  13. JKS, he probably would have gone back to the dark side when he found the, uh, light side wouldn’t allow him to have all that he wanted right then.

  14. I’m still not convinced his redemption was justified – too easy, too fast, after he’d knowingly gone too far. I agree his repentance was probably sincere. However, there would still need to be consequences for his actions, and one of those consequences would be that he cannot be redeemed or at least would need to do more to balance out the evil he perpetuated in the galaxy.

    My original viewpoint, at the end of Episode 6, was that Vader’s redemption seemed to be way too easy. Kill the Emperor and go to Heaven, that’s all it takes. But I wonder about the depth of suffering that Vader may have gone through over the years, having essentially become the lap dog of the Emperor, believing that no redemption was ever going to be possible. His response to Luke on the moon of Endor was “give it up, son, there’s absolutely no hope at all for me”. I don’t believe that when Vader kills the Emperor, he does it with any kind of hope that the action might lead to any kind of redemption. It was merely the act of one who would give up his life for his friends (or son), with no “what’s in it for me” involved.

    I don’t recall where I read it now, but there was some kind of “novelized” description of the death of the Emperor that describes Vader, in the moments after throwing the Emperor over the side as attempting to jump over or pull himself over the edge himself, but not having the strength to do so, and I find that consistent with the idea that Vader had given up all hope of being able to change and repent.

    If it were revealed to the Prophet that Hitler had managed to pull off a successful “death-bed repentence” and was among the valient spirits who were teaching those in spirit prison about the Gospel, and he so announced it as being the case, what would be your reaction? Yet, isn’t the message of the Gospel the fact that everyone can be saved, through obedience to the gospel laws and ordinances? I mean, we have done Hitler’s endowments, just in case.

    It’d sure cause one heck of a lot of interesting discussions, that’s for sure.

  15. Does the sinner need to do something to balance out the evil he has done in order to receive forgiveness? Only as a demonstration that he has truly had a change of heart. Forgiveness is not earned, it is a gift. If someone truly has a change of heart but is not able to make recompense (because they die), that does not mean that they have not done enough to be forgiven. What matters is what JKS said: if he had lived, would he have made recompense? This is similar to the idea of giving to the poor; if you can give, you should. If you cannot, you should at least say to yourself that you would give if you were able.

    Vader died, so he could not “do more to balance out the evil he perpetuated in the galaxy”. But the fact that his death prevented him so doing shouldn’t be a reason why he is unworthy of redemption, since redemption is not bought, but is given.

    Tanya, your comment that seeing Anakin standing there next to Obi Wan and Yoda seems ridiculous sounds an awful lot like the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Are you resentful that Anakin went to Jedi Heaven along with Yoda and Obi Wan, when he spent his Force inheritance in riotous living? I rejoice along with Luke and the Ewoks, for the Jedi that was lost in the dark side found his way back to the light.

    (Though mainly he looks ridiculous standing there because he looks so young compared to the other two (in the digitally-edited DVD edition of Return of the Jedi with Hayden Christiansen). Why does Obi Wan appear as his elderly self, but Anakin as his young self?)

  16. Mark N. wrote: But I wonder about the depth of suffering that Vader may have gone through over the years, having essentially become the lap dog of the Emperor, believing that no redemption was ever going to be possible. His response to Luke on the moon of Endor was “give it up, son, there’s absolutely no hope at all for me”. I don’t believe that when Vader kills the Emperor, he does it with any kind of hope that the action might lead to any kind of redemption. It was merely the act of one who would give up his life for his friends (or son), with no “what’s in it for me” involved.

    I just want to say … nice analysis. I like the spirit of what you’re saying here.

  17. I agree what counts is sincerity, not time after repentance, and Vader’s mortal risk shows sincerity of some kind. I also think it’s important not to overemphasize what he had done in turning to the dark side. All along Anakin was immature and impulsive. I don’t think he was any less impulsive, or any more resolute, in joining the Emperor. He did it in despair as much as anything. His faith in himself had already suffered a serious blow when he killed the Tuscan raiders in revenge. He didn’t mean to kill Windu, probably only meant to block the saber, but his intervention gave the Emperor the upper hand, and what was he supposed to do then? Yoda had practically consigned him to his fate by sending him off solo as Padme’s bodyguard : ) What do you expect of a teenager? (though I agree the way he was played he seemed seriously under-educated in the spiritual side of the Jedi ways, for how many years he had spent apprenticing) And yet he had resigned his love before they thought they were about to be killed anyway! Anakin was a tool the whole time, and he finally retrieved his integrity by killing the Emperor.

  18. Re #16 (Jonathan). Part of my analysis comes from assuming there is no Christ in the Star Wars universe, thus no proxy suffering for sins.

    Adding in Christ, though, and I still don’t believe it (“it” being Darth Vader redeemed). Yes, Vader died, so he could do no more, but “this life is the time to prepare to meet God”. If we or Vader squander it taking over the galaxy, murdering any who would oppose us or murdering to get our way, then we have failed to prepare to meet God. The Prodigal Son came home before his probation was over. Vader squandered all of his probation, with the exception of a moment of goodness. No, I don’t believe that moment is enough. Also, the extreme level of his evilness does play a part. Is there a line we cross where we can’t go back? Restitution plays a role in repentance, which he can’t do, not only because he died beforehand. He may have become better, but I still don’t see the redemption.

  19. Re #15 (Mark N.)

    But I wonder about the depth of suffering that Vader may have gone through over the years

    That’s true. He was already a tortured soul in Episode III. Since I’m mostly not considering the issue from the point of view that the Star Wars universe has a Christ who suffered in proxy, he would have paid at least some of the price for his evilness just in the torture of existing. With his legs severed off, and burning next to the lava, he surely suffered for his sins.

    (Which brings up another issue. Obi Wan should have killed him quickly at that point rather than leaving him there screaming. Did he do it because he figured Anakin would die anyway, or did he purposely leave him screaming, still assuming he would die, but leaving him to suffer because he was so angered and hurt at knowing finally how greatly Anakin had betrayed the Jedi, especially him?)

  20. Tanya,

    If the Prodigal Son had died on his way to meet his father, would you say that he had lost his chance, that he was dead and time was up? Since he didn’t have the chance to act out the fruits of his change of heart, he is condemned?

    I had a seminary teacher who would always say, “It doesn’t matter where you are on the path, it only matters what direction your going.” I’m not going to penalize Vader because he died before he had a chance to redeem himself. If that is the case, you are saying that the only way Vader could have repented would have been to let Luke die, then kill the Emperor in his sleep. This would have allowed Vader to go on living, during which time he could undo as much evil as possible.

    How can that repentance be more sincere than choosing to save Luke, even at the cost of his own life?

    Imagine a man who lives a sinful life, but then decides to repent and change, to surrender all the power and influence he has gained through his sins, with little thought to what his life will be like as a result. He is then faced with the decision to save the life of an innocent person, but to do so, he risks his own life. Should he not save the innocent person, since that would end his mortal probation and he would lose out on his chance to repent? Or should he save the person with no thought of himself, simply because it is the right thing, even if it cuts short his mortal probation?

    I don’t see any scenario where the former would be better than the latter. And I don’t think the man would be denied mercy because his chance to redeem himself was cut short by a selfless and sacrificial act to do the right thing. What matters is, in what direction was he headed when he died?

  21. Jonathan, I see your point and mostly agree with you, but I’m not entirely convinced that the prodigal son is at the same level as the son who stayed with his father. His father tells him (the son who had been righteous the whole time) that “all that I have is thine.” I don’t think the parable teaches that one can live a sinful life and return and you will necessarily be redeemed (and by redeemed, I mean exalted). The celebration for the son who returned is proper and good, but is he given all that the father has? It doesn’t seem so. The sons still seems to be on different levels. Does that mean all is lost for the prodigal son? Absolutely not. If he is still alive, his probation is not over. He can still continue to perfect himself and become what his father wants him to become so that he is worthy to also receive all that his father has. He isn’t there yet (at the time the parable is set). He (and each of us) must make haste to repent and live righteously. We don’t know when our probation is over, and we must be prepared at all times. Also, the point is to become something – become like Christ. If we spend our lives doing the opposite, then we aren’t going to be doing that. We can’t become perfect without Christ – we are “perfected in him” – but we have to do all that we can do before the atonement can perfect us.

    Applying this to Vader, he seemingly changed at that moment, and that is good and worthy of celebration, but I would consider Yoda and Obi Wan exalted [assuming they’ve had the ordinances ;-)], but Anakin… still not convinced. Is that one good act at the end of his life all that he could do? Sure, he could do no more then, but he wasted his entire life. Luke should be happy his father turned good. As the Ewoks and the rest of the galaxy party it up at the end of the Empire, Luke seems to be partying just as much at his father turning back to the light. This is all good. But, again, not convinced that we can squander our lives, have a moment of repentence, and we are on the same level as those who were righteous all along.

  22. We surely can’t be at the same level as those who have been righteous all along. But then again, none of us has been righteous all along. No one can be exalted without grace. Our works cannot redeem us, no matter how righteous we have been.

    The essence of repentance and mercy, of the atonement, is not that we can squander our lives. It’s that we all do squander our lives, to one degree or another. We are all in need of grace. But we can have a change of heart and repent, and while we are still alive, we do what we can to make restitution for our wrongs. But we should never believe that our restitution is our redemption. Our actions are simply an expression of what is in our hearts, and it is our hearts that the Lord will judge.

  23. Jonathan Stone — long time no see. Send me an email. nathanmarksmith at gmail.
    Others please forgive the intrusion.

  24. I think it makes little sense to analyze Star Wars from the perspective of the gospel (different rules should apply in that setting). But on the broader question of rewards and levels. I think the following quotation is quite relevant.

    Matthew 20:1 – 16 …

    For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

    Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

    So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and given them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

    And when they had received it, they murmured against the Goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou has made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and the heat of the day. But he answered one of them and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called but few chosen.

  25. Jonathan, true, but I still believe there are degrees to which a person can go, from which they cannot achieve exaltation. I see Darth Vader as having definitely crossed that line.

    JCP, good point. However, I would still quibble on “idle”, as in they were not mass murderers, evil overlords of the galaxy (again, I’m focusing on the degree of wickedness). And, okay, sure, it may make little sense to analyze Star Wars from the perspective of the gospel, but it’s fun! And see, we’ve actually had a productive conversation out of it. Let that inner geek out šŸ˜‰

  26. Re #23 (just had a few more thoughts)

    All true, agree 100% with that. However, I would say there are very few people on the planet who are actively aiming for evil. Regardless of religion most people try to live their lives by a moral code and try to be good people. At the same time, we are told that many are called but few are chosen, and few will make it to the celestial kingdom. How do we reconcile those two things, considering your thoughts in #23?

  27. We seem to be dancing around the issue that in Episode III

    Anakin friggin’ kills a room full of children.

    Stephen King once wrote that the way to have a villain that no reader will have any sympathy for is to have the villain do something nasty to a child. That villain is then unredeemable in the reader’s eyes, becuase no one wants anything bad to happen to children.

    And what about Christ’s words:

    Matt. 18: 6
    6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

    Anakin “offended” dozens or possibly hundreds of “little ones”.

    Vader showed no true signs of redemption. Had Hitler had kids, he likely would have given all to protect them.

    I don’t think Vader’s actions in ROTJ show any sense of real repentance. But it’s George’s universe and if he wants to have a redeemed Anakin, he can.

    It is notable that in the officially approved comics and novels that take place after ROTJ, Kenobi and Yoda often appear to give advice, but Anakin/Vader doesn’t do much, and only appears briefly. Perhaps his salvation wasn’t as total.

  28. Well, if we’re going with a strict gospel perspective, then this is my take:

    Vader cannot be forgiven for his deliberate murder of innocent children considering the light and knowledge he had. So the atonement could not redeem him from his murders, and he cannot go to the celestial kingdom. However, Yoda and Obi Wan were not baptized (presumably), so they cannot go to the celestial kingdom either. So what we saw in Anakin’s “redemption” of standing next to Yoda and Obi Wan was the fact that all of them are together in the Spirit World, and perhaps Vader’s sincere change of heart before his death means that he will go to the terrestrial kingdom together with Obi Wan and Yoda.

    Of course, a strict gospel perspective doesn’t make much sense here. A more general approach is required. So from that perspective, I won’t quibble over whether a specific action is forgivable or not. Anakin/Vader did some terrible things. Yet he was not completely evil. There was some good in him still. When Luke tells him this in Episode 6, Vader’s response was that it was “too late” for him. That seems to indicate not a love of evil, but almost a resignation to evil. Vader was fooled into siding with Palpatine, then committed terrible acts that put him past the point of no return in his mind. Yet seeing Luke’s suffering, he finally broke, giving in to the light side and the good that was in him. He killed his master to save his son, surrendering his own future. I, like Mark N., don’t think his intent was to gain something for himself. He finally made a selfless act, and I think in so doing, he was not only saving his son, but repudiating his life of evil. It was sincere. I think if he had gone on living, he would have served the light side of the force and worked to undo as much damage as he could.

    So insofar as he was redeemable, I think he was redeemed. And since we’re not going with a pure doctrinal perspective here, I like the idea that he could be redeemed fully and take a place next to Obi Wan and Yoda. It is a much more joyous and uplifting ending, to me, to think that there is always some good in someone, and that repentance is always possible. That no matter how bad the conflict, the story can always have a happy ending in the long run. That is how the light side is different, and better, than the dark side.

  29. Well, like I said, it’s George’s moral universe, and if he thinks Vader/Anakin can be redeemed, he’s free to. We don’t have to be free to accept it, though.

    And, like I said, in the EU (“Expanded Universe” as us SW fans call it), Kenobi and Yoda seem to be enjoying their afterlife, whereas Anakin appears to just be standing around.

  30. UH – I meant to say “we don’t have to accept it” – not that weird anti- free will statement I made above.

  31. Not only is Vader not redeemable as a human being according to our theology, he’s not redeemable as a character. Once a character becomes that irrational the fiction is broken.

  32. Everyone—Great discussion. This is a better, more insightful lesson on forgiveness than I get in Church sometimes. More Star Wars in Sunday School! I also think anytime anyone says something as a concrete truth in Church, such as “we should always follow the law of tithing,” I’m going to raise my hand and say “Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes.” Now THAT’S letting the inner geek out. šŸ˜‰

    As for the discussion—I think that Vader’s redemption comes “from a certain point of view.” Lucas is fond of saying how differing ideas of what is right are merely from the perspective of the observer. In this case, I believe Vader is redeemed from Luke’s point of view. Luke’s had to deal with some major father issues—being told his father was dead, Obi-wan telling him Vader killed his father, then learning from Vader himself that he is Luke’s father, feeling lied to by Obi-wan, then his father’s identity confirmed by his mentors but then told that he needs to confront and kill him. I hate it when that happens. But Luke decides to redeem rather than kill Vader and it works out from his point of view when his father kills the emperor instead of letting him die. Luke had to feel that he was successful, that there was good in his father, that Anakin did love him and his sister, and did choose good over evil. In his sons eyes, Vader is redeemed. There is no Godly judge in the Star Wars universe so the only perspective of redemption we see is Luke’s. And couldn’t the “vision” Luke has of Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin at the end of Ep. VI be merely hopeful thinking? If it was a true vision of the afterlife, why wouldn’t Qui-gon have been there too? And Leia couldn’t see it either.

    So my opinion—no redemption from a gospel perspective, but redemption from a son’s perspective.

  33. Derek –

    the quote is “only a Sith deals in absolutes” šŸ˜‰ A geek must quote correctly!

    (which was a very funny quote, given all the absolutes the Jedi had bandied about earlier in that movie, as well as in the previous movies).

  34. Why does Derek only show up when the thread is about Star Wars?

    I think the Star Wars universe posits a value greater than good and evil and that is balance. Anakin’s redemption is not based on doing good or being willing to do good acts for the rest of his life. It has little to do with good or evil. Killing the Emperor is yet another evil act to add to Darth’s list. No, his redemption, or rather his place alongside Yoda and Kenobi, is meritdd by his restoration of balance. Anakin fulfilled the long-delayed prophecy of bringing balance to the Force and in the moral framework of Star Wars that is better than simply being good–in fact the Jedi have never really taught a pure allegiance to good, per se. They teach an absence of the emotions associated with the Dark Side–anger, desire, resentment, hate. It’s important to keep in mind that whenever a Jedi trainee, whether it’s Luke or Anakin, breaks their training to go and save friends that’s seen as reckless and irresponsible.

    What makes Episode III interesting is that it shows the Jedi in a more realistic light, warts and all. Their shortcomings and desire to do wrong to consolidate and protect their own power is what provides the wedge for the Emperor to turn Anakin.

  35. Ivan, I’m not involved in Star Wars fandom (so many fandoms, so little time), so I was unaware of Anakin/Vader not doing much post-death. Interesting….

  36. I think the biggest thing Ep III did for me was to help me see Vader as more hopeless than deeply evil, as many here have said. He inadvertantly helps to kill Windu, and sees no other option but to serve the Emperor. The scene where he gets the name Darth Vader has been much lamented for it’s lack of emotion. I think people are jsut looking for the wrong emotion. They want to see him just crack and give in to hate. He never does that. He gives in to despair, and simply hopes that he can make something of what he sees as an inevitable choice. He really is torn between two states of mind. He wants justice, and yet he finds something in the Jedi way that seems to leave justice undone. In fact, the Jedi as a group seem to have trouble finding justice. They don’t know what to do when there is someone that deserves to die or that is too dangerous to leave alive. Do we exercise mercy? Do we play by the rules or don’t we? Anakin comes to Jedi training comparatively late, after pivotal formative years that he spent as a slave. (I wish the movies would have done more to show the injustices of slavery. Come on, this kid and his mom have their own apartment, and he gets to play with a lot of expensive electronic gadgets.) He sees that the Jedi can’t bring justice, and so, while he is concerned with mercy, highly emphasized in the Jedi order, he finds a conflict between that and the Justice he feels the galaxy needs. Someone offers him that–and the opportunity to hold on to the people he loves. He cant give that up, so he plays between the two. When he passes the point of returning to the Jedi, he puts his bets on the Sith. One of satan’s big ploys is to tell us we can’t go back.
    I think from this point, Vader is less of a leader in the empire than a tortured soul looking for something that matters. He does do what the emperor asks, but while the empire is fighting a war, he is looking for his son. He doesn’t seem to have so much art in the war itself, especially before Tarkin dies. He’s just a big black suit lurking and looking bad.
    So, as far as his redemption, I think that he is definitely not a son of perdition. He never found the fullness of the truth. The counsel knows this, and this is why he is never made a master.
    Can he be forgiven? I don’t know. This is probably like the David debate. Perhaps he gave up his chance at exaltation but will still be a ministering servant. The murders have more to do with where he puts his hopes for the future. He sees things as divided between the sith and the Jedi. He puts in with the sith and does a lot of stupid things, but always in the hopes of doing something better with the galaxy. He doesn’t even seem to like the emperor. When he finds Luke, his first thought is to get rid of the Emperor and run things in the way he thinks would be most just. He wants to do this with Padme as well. I don’t think that justifies the murders, but it does tend to make them seem forgivable, perhaps. I tend to agree with those who see blood atonement as operative here.
    Finally, while Lucas is not a member of the chuch, and we therefore shouldn’t look for him to be writing an allegory of true doctrine, such basic principles as redemption, justice and mercy are certainly operative here, even if he has a different conception of the mechanism. That is, while Christ might not be present as a matter of dogma, the principle of redemption always leaves the hole of one’s inablility to ever undo one’s actions and of the human condition always being one of debt–of lack. Thus a belief in redemption always either assumes a mechanism for overcoming that lack–atonement–or glosses over the issue and ignores a hole leaving the reasons for the posssibility of redemption unexplained.

  37. Brian G.,

    But the whole mythos is built on the idea that one may choose to follow one of two paths, the light side or the dark side. And each side is identified with a particular set of virtues (or vices, as the case may be). Therefore, the observer is going to sense a morality of sorts with respect to those choices. However, as I’ve argued over at Kulturblog, Anakin is overly victimized by Lucas’ new take on the force (at least according to E.I & II–haven’t seen III yet). We get the idea that the force has a will of it’s own in determining what Anakin will do. So, who cares about the light side or dark side anymore? None of that matters now. Those folks who lived so long ago in a galaxy far, far away are struggling with their own stripe of moral relativity.

  38. Brian asks:

    Why does Derek only show up when the thread is about Star Wars?

    That’s because Derek is actually one of Bryce’s many bots. He’s programmed to show up on threads about Star Wars.

    This is similar to the Steve poaching-bot, the DKL-bot (which is programmed to show up on threads that use the word “feminism,” and uses a complicated algorithm to make statements that infuriate feminists), and the danithew-bot (which shows up between comments number 150 and 200 on long threads and says “chupacabra!”).

    What can I say — Bryce clearly has too much time on his hands.

  39. I have really enjoyed the discussion on this topic. Very interesting stuff.

  40. Wow! You know we Lucas’ come from just plain old Kentucky farmfolk and all this brilliant geekicity is pretty darn amazing, especially when applied to what are basically glorified Saturday serials. However, as pointed out above, George is not of the faith (otherwise he would have done his family history I would be able to determine our exact degree of I’m sure very distant cousinage), so his story line isn’t going to jive necessarily with our rather elaborate beliefs about salvation and the afterlife. In the interests of saving George from the false doctrine police and this thread from dancing on the head of a pin, may I suggest two more likely frameworks for the Star Wars Universe Plan of Salvation:

    (1) Anakin is like Hercules, who is deceived into slaying his wife and children, and after performing his tasks is made a deity by the Olympians. The plot device George uses for driving Anakin to the dark side is similar — a false vision. And in Greek mythology “salvation,” i.e. being deified, is a gift of the gods, not something necessarily earned by one’s merit. Of course, Anakin only performs one heroic deed instead of twelve and is not actively seeking redemption like Hercules. I do think that there are hints in Ep. 5 and 6 that Darth Vader is having second thoughts, but without being able to see the emotions behind the mask and with George’s rather limited talents at writing compelling dialog that doesn’t come across very clearly or dramatically.

    (2) I once read or saw an interview in which George quoted approvingly one of his daughter’s descriptions of their family religion as being “Buddhist Methodist.” (A description which might be applied in some respects to Mormonism but that’s another topic.) There is a lot of eastern religion in George’s fun little Stars Wars idea pastiche, and I think that throws off Christians who try to do what Tanya is doing here. Clearly the Jedi most resemble a Buddhist monastic order (obviously a kung-fu trained Shaoling (sp?) kind of an order, but a monastic order nonetheless). Their renunciation of all desires and wants obviously comes from the Buddhist path to nirvana. In that context, it makes perfect sense that Anakin would be “saved” precisely because by renouncing the Emperor and all he offered Anakin had acheived the renunciation of the desires that had driven him.

    Of course, if you really want to let your inner geek run free consider how much better they would have all been if they had Mormonism. The Jedi wouldn’t have had to be monks — indeed they probably would have been obligated to be married. Anakin and Padme could have had a lovely wedding in the Naboo Temple. Just picture Yoda as a nice elderly temple sealer in a white robe. Of course here is the super-geek question — would the ordinance be valid if done in Yodaspeak (“for time and all eternity sealed you are ….”).

  41. I think JWL hits the closest here. Lucas’ Star Wars universe borrows from many religions and myths but commits to none of them. I’m not sure there is any StarWars Heaven/Nirvanah. The fact that Vader appears with OB1 and Yoda imply nothing more than that Vader has learned how to communicate from beyond death, as Qui-Gon does at the end of Episode III (though we never see it).
    There is no Christ in the Star Wars universe so all of our repentance and redemption doctrine is inapplicable to the Lucasverse — but it is an interesting exercise in geekness.

  42. ZH,

    When Luke says “I know there’s still good in you” we are led to believe in no uncertain terms that He believes Vader can be turned from the dark side. When we see Anakin appear at the end of E.VI when know that he is able to do so because he has, in fact, made that turn. No matter how we try to justify Lucas, we simply cannot get around the moral incongruity of his story telling.

  43. “While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard. He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’”

    Can we say we understand the Atonement if we are easily provoked to cry out, “Oh, no! He’s gone to far. There can be no forgiveness. There can be no mercy. There can be no true repentence”? Can we suppose that we understand the mind of God and His mercy, when our words betray us to be in the role of Satan, the accuser?

    The clever thing about Vader’s mask, is that we cannot see behind it to what is going on in Anakin’s mind. Perhaps it teaches that we don’t know the thoughts and intents of another’s heart; no, not even a tenth so well, as we might like to think we do. There is forgiveness or there is not forgiveness. But our Father in Heaven causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’

  44. Uh, that very phrase: HE causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust’ undercuts the argument against judgement–the EVIL and the good, the just and the UNJUST.

    That said, I can only say that I hope His judgements will be as soft a forebearing as they would have to be in order for one such as Vader to find forgiveness. I mean, it is a fearful thing for one such as I to consider facing a God who’s judgements were any less forebearing.

    For me, the real issue is in the way Lucas has designed the Star Wars universe. His characters cannot help but become irrational as they are supposedly designed after human beings while the context in which they are placed departs from that which defines human beings.

    Episodes IV & V are exceptions, of course. He was younger then and therefore probably more naive.

  45. Maybe Anakin didn’t do much post death because he hadn’t fully trained how to be a ghost, while Yoda and Obi-Wan had a lot of training before the died…

    Anakin was the Chosen One…the one who would bring balance to the Force….

    Ultimately, he was the only one who would be able to destroy the Emperor…

  46. Hopefully this doesn’t threadjack too much, but I thought the par tabout training to show up after you die was just dumb.
    It also changes from Ep VI to ep III. In episode Vi, it doesn’t seem strange that Vader shows up because the paradigm is redemption. Luke saves his father, so he can show up after death. In the new movies, Lucas has become more of a physicalist. In the original movies, the jedi fight like the real battle is mental, the force is mystical, the way of the force is a religion. In the new movies the jedi fight like trained martial artists, and the contest is very physical (even a cyborg can get involved), the force is given off by midichlorians (forgive me if I misspelled that. I’m trying to forget it), and the way of the Jedi is simply intense training in using the now physicalized force.
    While I do believe that redemption that is inspired by Christian thought is ingrained in the whole series (whatever other influences are there), I think that the new movies reveal some of the difficulties in attempting to retain the ideal of redemption from a purely rationalist perspective, in a universe that is 100% within the ability of the characters to grasp as physical. The closest we get to wonder in these new movies is that Quai Gon and Obi Wan are amazed by how many little bacteria can be found in Anakin’s blood.

  47. Right on Steve H. You should take a look at the thread on E.III over at Kulturblog. A few of us got into the problems with the Star Wars universe over there.

  48. Here’s a thought regarding Vader’s decision to save his son as a “last minute” thing:

    Check out ESB. The first moment it is confirmed to him that Luke is indeed his son, the emperor is intent on destroying Luke. Vader bargains… I think in an attempt to save his son.

    VADER: If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally.

    From that point on, Vader is reaching out to Luke, trying to save him from death.

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