it seems to be more oriented around folks with grudges scoring points than really attempting to understand. (From both sides of the aisle).

I get that feeling in the Bloggernacle a lot.

As for the geography question - I have no idea if this is even remotley considered a possibility, but the longer I live, the more I think the BoM took place on an island. But I just don’t know and I leave it to other more knowledgeable than I am to figure it out.

Clark- it would be nice to be able to read the article you reference without having to sign up for something. Is this copyrighted material that you cannot legally reprint? As I understood it, it’s nothing more than a message board.

Parenthetical comments on your statement re. Cumorah:

1. There is no revelation that identifies the drumlin in Manchester Township where Joseph Smith received the plates as “Cumorah.”

2. The Book of Mormon itself does not say that the Plates of Mormon (the set Joseph received) were buried in the hill Cumorah. In fact, it says exactly the opposite:

And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. (Mormon 6:6; emphasis added.)

3. The naming of this location therefore seems to have been based on a misreading of the Book of Mormon by early Latter-day Saints. The identification of the New York hill as “Cumorah” was first made by Oliver Cowdery in 1835. (I have heard rumor that there is an 1833 statement by W.W. Phelps that does this, but I haven’t seen it.)

4. It is therefore inaccurate to say that “Moroni buried the plates in the hill Cumorah.” The hill we call Cumorah is not the hill described in the Book of Mormon where the final Nephite battles were fought. (It is not surprising, therefore, that the hill in New York shows no archaeological evidence of having been an ancient battle site.)

Tossman, it’s just that this page requires one to subscribe. The rest of the forum doesn’t. I don’t know why this is as I’m not involved with running to forum, although I’ve vociferously made a few opinions known at times regarding it. It has nothing to do with copyright issues so far as I know. For the record I’m pretty pleased that there is a tad more distance between FAIR and the forum myself since a lot that goes on in the forum doesn’t represent FAIR or their approach to things.

Regarding an island, I’m not sure that any known island would line up with the internal geography. The only one that might be big enough would be Cuba or Haiti and I don’t think either works.

The “land northward” is interesting but doesn’t quite make sense to me as the River Sidon runs north and empties into the east sea (as per the BoM) which surrounds the land northward in Poulsen’s model–unless he doesn’t consider the Yucatan Penninsula as part of the land northward (which wouldn’t jive very well with his theory on Nephite directions, as interesting as that theory may be)

Due to the upheavals of the earth attendant with the crucifixion, as described in 3 Nephi, it is likely that many geographical reference points mentioned prior to that time are no longer identifiable. 3 Nephi is even explicit that some are buried and some are under water.

I think it is interesting that most reputable organizations such as FAIR and FARMS have limited themselves to small geographical areas in meso-America and that any findings outside of their limited boundaries do not get looked at even if they have a lot of merit. Take Colombia for instance. It has yeilded more gold and silver artifacts from BoM times than any other North or South American country. What it lacks however, is monuments of dwellings so it is therefor passed over because of this. Maybe Nephites mostly built with wood. Also the river sidon of the BoM, which was located in the Land southward, is a perfect fit for one that flows northward through Colombia and empties into the east sea (Atlantic).

I think most geography problems arise because of ignorance. This is made manifest in insisting on the Maya being the Nephite/ Lamanite peoples when in fact, their writing and living styles do not even closely resemble anything that could be considered Egyptian style. The maya more closely resemble the Jaredites.

Also a little known fact about New York- In early America when the land was being overcome with settlers, a strange anomaly abounded. Settlers everywhere were running in to mass graves of warriors and earthen forts. This was especially manifest in the Ohio river valley and ending up in western New York. Some researchers of the day even went on to say that it appeared as if two separate yet closely related civilizations were ended in a series of large and ferocious battles which culminated in western New York! It was not uncommon at all when earth was first being plowed in western New York for skulls and weapons of war to be continually unearthed, even on proportions massive enough to begin investigations. And many investigations were made concerning the anomalies but were later dismissed because of their massive unexplainable issues.

One of these issues was the massive ancient copper mines in the state of Michigan. It is a well known fact that ancient copper mines thrived in the state of Michigan of which has been assumed must have been an ongoing procedure for hundreds of years involving tens of thousands of workers. This copper has been formed to make everything from tools and weapons to ornaments and sheeting. It has been found over most of North America including as far south as Central America. They obviously had massive trade routes.

But you see, this type of information and many other great anomalies always get passed over by the big Mormon geography diggers because they do not fit with their preconceived ideas and they continue to look at pieces of land so small that there is just no way that civilizations could of possibly been confined to for thousands of years!

I don’t know, Rob. I’ve read a lot of FARMS articles on BoM geography that seemed fairly open-minded. I don’t see the limitation you say they impose on themselves.

About the New York/Ohio findings, I realize settlers may not have been in positions to properly document these findings, but it would be nice if there were an actual archaeological record. There have been many claims of findings in Utah that seem pretty compelling, yet lack any credible documentation for one reason or another.

I think it’s safe to say at this point that the Nephite/Lamanite civilization was not the only one in the Americas.

I personally don’t subscribe to the North American BoM model for several reasons, mostly physical. But it will be very interesting when we discover the histories of these peoples

I uses to email quite regularly with FARMS, suggesting to them to be a little more open minded about the geography. They ended up telling me that there was enough evidence to support their limited geo model and that no one in the scholar community believed in a large model anymore. I must certainly say then- maybe that’s why they can’t find the hard evidence they are looking for.

People will always find justification for their models great or small. Suggesting that there was more than just nephite and lamanites is one of these. There may or may not have been, but don’t limit yourself to fall in the category of there “must have been others” in order to fit your model.

I like to gather info that relates as a whole without making a clear distinction. My bringing up the New York artifacts is just that- I don’t know who they came from, but I will add it to the list of ancient american anomalies that they might have nephite/ lamanite/ jaredite relations. If it doesn’t pan out- I am not out anything, but if it amounts to something, then I will be far greater ahead than the rest because I haven’t hindered my approach.

Ok, I am exposing myself here, but I’ve secretly harbored curiosities about the possibility of the book of Mormon occuring much further south, maybe southern chile or southern argentina. I came up with this idea based on ocean currents a long time ago, and have never shaken it. Does anyone know if anyone has explored or addressed this possibility?

FWIW, here is a map of ocean currents…

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8q_1.html

and another
http://www.uwsp.edu/geO/faculty/ritter/images/maps/ocean_currents.jpg

I had imagined their using the “antartic circumpolar” current or “west wind drift”.

Matt, the whole Kon Tiki situation makes your speculation quite interesting. I agree we should be open to the possibility of a non-Mesoamerica BoM geographical situation. It also may be that ocean currents were different 2600 years ago than they are now. It’s possible.

Bookslinger: (#6) Looking at similar events I doubt the events of 3 Ne would have affected geography that significantly. I don’t remember how he deals with Sidon, but as I recall (and I might be conflating rivers here) the river in question changed course significantly about 1000 years ago and one can see via satellite imagery the old river bed. I really ought look that up to be sure. So no one quote me on that. But I dimly recall a discussion of that.

Clark,

Is it that the river has changed it’s course? Or is it that a large reservoir covers much of it’s original course?

I’ll try and look it up when I find some time.

OK, I found it. Here’s the research on the Sidon River with the Southern End of the Rio Grijalva.

I was, as I feared, conflating two issues. (That’ll teach me to open my mouth before researching) It was an other river that had changed course that Paulson had discussed.

Great post, Clark, and thanks for the info on the other newsgroup. FARMS has painted themselves into an diminishing corner for years with their focus on Central America.

I’ve seen enough evidence to this point to conclude, for myself of course, as I’m not a scholar on the subject, to conclude that Lehi’s party landed somewhere on the Pacific coast of Central America. I believe there are two Hill Cumorahs, one where Mormon hid the record of the Nephites, a huge collection, and the other where Moroni hid the Golden Plates, in upper New York. The evidence does not suggest that Lehi’s party crossed the Atlantic and landed somewhere in the United States on the eastern shore—it would be impossible for them to have crossed the Pacific and gotten past the Rocky Mountains; while the Rocky Mountains are fairly new in comparison to the Appalachians, they are older than 2000 years, and thus did not appear during the great change, but before.

Moreover Mormon never, in his rare moments, speaks of a large population of Nephites. Even at the end, when talking about the final battles, he places the Nephites at no more than maybe 2 or 3 million people. I’ll give you ten million if you want to claim ten million. Now, in a time of slow travel (no trains or automobiles) how could they spread themselves apart as much as we do today and still stay cohesive as a group? They couldn’t. Mormon talks at one point about a warrior taking two or three days to traverse from coast to coast across his nation. Who here can even drive across the United States in two or three days in a car, except they get no sleep?

Furthermore, the evidence of the Jaredites is far more compelling that the Nephites really were a Central American group. The evidence suggests that the Olmecs are the Jaredites. The Olmecs are in southern Mexico. The Jaredites were always to the north of the Nephites, according to Mormon’s geographical notes.

Finally, Mormon says the final battle that took place at the Hill Cumorah, was also close to where the Nephites first landed. If the Jaredites were to the North of the Nephites, and the Olmecs (who are in southern Mexico) are the Jaredites, then the location of Lehi’s landing is south of southern Mexico, and the Hill Cumorah of the last battle is also south of southern Mexico. Thus, the final battle Hill Cumorah cannot be the same one as the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York.

That’s my view. I haven’t yet seen enough evidence to prove it wrong.

Thanks for the link, Clark. That gives me a better grasp of the theory. I’m not sure why I made the assumption that the river Sidon must empty into the east sea. But even so, the theory in question renders that point moot.

I’d like to hear more about their thoughts on the narrow neck of land. It is spoken of as a rather singular geografic area in the BoM, and yet these folks are suggesting a location which seems to encompass two “narrow necks.” No doubt, they’ve thought through the potencial problems with this approach and are building their model from a reasonable set of assumptions–just curious.

Now that I’ve read through Larry Poulsen’s discussion, I love his use of Google Earth but I’m disappointed that he applies the same circular reasoning that FARMS so often does. For example, he writes: “We must, however, base our assumptions on the known data concerning the cultures of Mesoamerica.” In other words, we have to interpret the BoM in light of Mesoamerican culture because we “know” that they must have been somewhere in Mesoamerica.

He also repeatedly asserts that we would have little trouble understanding the spiritual messages because we have a common background with the BoM people (or JS’s English translation), but what Mesoamerican culture had anything approaching a Christian society? Larry has it backwards. We are much more likely to relate to Mesoamerican geographic descriptions than Mesoamerican spiritual concepts. If we assume that Joseph Smith translated the spiritual concepts in terms that we can understand, even if the original authors had a much different perspective, why couldn’t we also assume he could translate the geographic concepts in terms we can understand clearly?

The discussion about the Hebrew meaning of “sea” is useful. The BoM uses “lake” only when it borrows the wording from Revelation about a lake of fire and brimstone; this use has no definitional relevance to the term “sea” in the BoM.

Instead of applying Mesoamerican definitions (where they clearly don’t apply in a religious sense) to geographic terms, I think it makes more sense to consider how the Hebrew background of the original authors would have affected the meaning. In this sense, the term translated as “sea” could mean any large quantity of water, including an ocean, lake, or even a large river or swampy/marshy area. Likewise, the term river Sidon could refer to a type of river instead of a named river (since Sidon means “fishing” in Hebrew).

As I’ve worked on the BoM geography, I’ve concluded that a limited North American geography makes the most sense, located roughly in the same area where Joseph Smith actually said they lived (as opposed to the inferences that he located the Nephite lands in Mesoamerica, which he never did).

Jonathan,

IF the Nephites were in upstate New York, why has Mormon never talked about snow? You’d think for military strategies, snow would become a major factor…

Secondly, if the Nephites were in upstate New York, the Jaredites would be north of them in Canada. Yet Moroni never details their survival of cold winters in his brief recap. Furthermore, the Olmecs really do fit the description of the Jaredites in such a way that no other lost peoples do.

Finally, you might run into troubles trying to explain how the weather could be warm enough in upstate New York to not have snowy winters, because across the sea in Europe, there is no recorded anomaly for that same latitudinal location. Basically, for upstate New York to remain snowless for 1000 years during a time that was closer to the Ice Age seems rather wrong.

furthermore, Mormon details in Helaman and 3 Nephi groups of people getting on boats and heading north. Now, if it gets colder the further north you go, why would they want to go that way?

Finally, Lehi and his sons are used to a very temperate and mild climate. Jerusalem rarely gets snow, and the Arabian peninsula…heh, that’s as hot as you’re gonna get. Once they got to America, you’d think that you might want to head south to warmer climates. I mean, it is what you are used to…..

Boy, forgive my silly misspellings in my previous comments–I really do know that “geographic” is spelled with a “ph” rather than an “f.”

Dan,

I think I agree with you generally about the climate–though one must admit that *no* discussion of the weather occures in the BoM. (unless we’re talking about unusual circumstances such as a famine or what-not) Now this lack of info on the weather could be because (as you say) that the climate was temperate and, therefore, didn’t give them much to talk about. On the other hand, it could be because, well, it was not significant enough to be mentioned in Mormon’s reduced version of the record. One would think that perhaps there may have been terrible rainstorms and flooding and what-not that would have found a perminate place in the annals of Nephite history if they were indeed located in a temperate zone. But the edited record is silent on that count.

#3: Re W.W. Phelps’ reference to Cumorah:

“In the year one thousand eight hundred and twenty seven, the plates came forth from the hill Cumorah, which is in the county of Ontario, and state of New-York, by the power of God.”

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ems/v1n08.htm

The tortured logic here is painful to this lurker.

The BofM was fiction. Trying to place it against the archaeological, botanical, metallurgical, sociological, anthropological, and linguistic evidence will drive you insane.
This thread is a prime example of the lengths to which believers will go to square the circle. Maybe the “limited sandbar theory” is next?

Randy,

Everyone of those sciences you mention above are so incredibly soft–as they relate to history–that even the Bible can hardly be proved by them.

You are free to believe the Book of Mormon to be fiction, but perhaps you might consider the logical fallacy in implying that such an incredible literary achievement would come about by such weak and uneducated means–unless, of course you believe the BoM to be inspired fiction.

@Dan (#21)

One possibility (I haven’t done any research, I’m just throwing this out) for the lack of snow would be that the events of the Book of Mormon all transpire previous to the Little Ice Age, 1350-1850, which saw a marked cooling of the Earth’s surface temperatures and from which the climate is still recovering. It is possible, I suppose, that even upstate New York in AD 421 may not have seen more significant amounts of snow than the American South does today.

Jack

Biblical lands, with exceptions, can be located on a map, and traced back through history.

I’m not aware of any DNA or archaeological evidence that contradicts the existence of Jews, Romans, Egyptians. Do you really believe that BofM civilizations, as described in the book, are just waiting to be found, but have left no footprint? And the mounting DNA records and testing of indigenous americans is making this position increasingly implausible…

Why not apply your God-given power of discernment to recognize that the BofM reads exactly like the output of a 19th-century spiritual enthusiast who was trying to create his own religion? Explaining Native Americans as lost Hebrews, plagiarizing the Bible, and leveraging Rigdon/Ethan Smith/Spaulding does not an archaeological record make, nor does it even approach a description of “incredible literary achievement”…

I respect your reliance on faith, but the attempt to map Lamanites and Nephites to real world evidences and speculations ends up, from this lurker’s eyes, as a sad misplacement of spiritual energy.

Neal,

That could be a possibility, but the snow issue is minor for me. The real big issue is where you place the Jaredites if you place the Nephites in upstate New York. The evidence of the Olmecs makes it pretty hard for me to accept any other locale, or group, to fit the Jaredites.

Well Randy, you assert a viewpoint that is not unreasonable.

But it gets plenty of airtime elsewhere. The purpose of the blog is not to argue from the perspective of the disbeliever, but from the perspective of the believer.

To someone like you (I’m assuming here), this seems very much like trying to make the square peg fit in the round hole. That’s because you disregard a great deal of the evidence that faithful Mormons base their convictions on.

I’m talking about spiritual witness and fulfillment in Gospel living. These are very powerful pieces of evidence for many of us. Powerful enough, in fact, that we see the evidentiary equation much differently than you do.

I’m aware that you do not give credence to this kind of “evidence.” But we do. Once you approach it from that angle, the sort of geographic exercises performed here make much more sense.

However, I agree with your point that these kind of scholarly gymnastics are not core essentials of the faith, and we shouldn’t take them too seriously.

Randy, as Seth points out, this isn’t the place to debate whether basic Mormon beliefs are real. I’d just say that the Book of Mormon doesn’t seem that worse off than most of Genesis and Exodus. We should also not conflate lack of evidence with evidence of lack. Certainly everyone at FAIR and FARMS would agree that there is no positive evidence for the Book of Mormon in the Americas. At best they can discuss how it is rational to believe for the believer and then try and find what geography is most compatible with the text. But positive evidence awaits. There is more positive evidence for the near eastern part of the Book of Mormon as the Hiltons have demonstrated I think.

Regarding New York geography I think the New York models simply aren’t persuasive. Most of the mesoAmerican models have problems, I admit. But nothing like the problems the New York models have. I can’t claim to have studied them all but most of those I have found are pretty implausible in my opinion. (No offense to those who buy into them.) The issue of weather is but one of the problems. The issue of numbers and of the nature of the civilization seems even more problematic. Further those espousing such models not only have those problems but the problems traditionally besetting mesoAmerican models.

The only strong point that I can see for a New York model is the secondary claims for the location of Cumorah. But there aren’t any first hand revelatory claims for this that I can see. And considerable reason to doubt the second hand claims. The strongest reason to accept it might be the whole Omandangus bit but even that becomes more problematic when you compare all the various accounts. (IMO)

Randy,

Ditto what Seth and Clark have said–plus, *geography* is a rather “hard” science comparatively speaking and therefore is likely to be the strongest indicator of historical continuity in with regard to the Bible–though even it fails to a large extent. Therefore, as it relates to the BoM, it’s a pretty good place to start with respect to the sciences.

I’m perhaps completely out of my scholastic league, here, so I apologize if I sound ignorant.

There are two references in the Book of Mormon that indicate that the Lehite people covered the entire face of the land. The first:

20 And thus it did come to pass that the people of Nephi began to prosper again in the land, and began to build up their waste places, and began to multiply and spread, even until they did acover the whole face of the land, both on the northward and on the southward, from the sea west to the sea east.

Granted, this doesn’t mean that they necessarily covered all of the land northward and southward, but when you add this scripture:

And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east. (emphasis added)

it would seem to indicate that they covered much more than a limited area belting the two continents. How does that fit into the microgeography theories?

In direct relation to the Hill Cumorah, is there not a reference to Joseph Smith returning the gold plates to a cave in the Hill Cumorah where multiple other records were seen? That would seem to indicate that it is the same Hill. Logically, what’s to say that in his unknown time of wandering after the last great battle, that Moroni did not return to the Hill Cumorah where Mormon originally stored all the other records?

UnicornMom,

The problem rises from the fact that North and South America (if we are to read Mormon’s comments literally) are really massive, gigantic! The United States alone, from coast to coast spans 4000 miles. From Canada’s utmost reaches down to the lowest point in Chile, you’re talking about 20,000 miles probably. Having a max total of about 10 million people cover all that and still communicate and relate to each other with their means of travel is an impossibility.

Furthermore, at the end of the book of Mormon, at the last battle at the Hill Cumorah, Mormon commands 24 batallions, each one has only 10,000 soldiers, totaling 240,000 men in a last battle. Mormon never mentions death of Nephites in the millions, in fact, never once does he use million to describe the size of the Nephites, and always the Lamanites were larger. The only group to get a reference of more than 1 million in the Book of Mormon are the Jaredites.

Placing the Jaredites is the key to understanding the geography of the Book of Mormon. The Jaredites, according to Mormon and Moroni, were north of the Land of Nephi. If the Jaredites were to the north of the Land of Nephi, and you place the land of Nephi (and Hill Cumorah) in upstate New York, where do you place the Jaredites? Further, what archaeological evidence do we have of a population that numbered in the millions north of upstate New York?

On the other hand, we have the Olmecs, in southern Mexico. Archaeologically the fit the same timeline the Jaredites do. They came into existence about 2000 BC (about the same time as the Jaredites), were a large population of large men with large breastplates (the same description Mormon gives the remains of the Jaredites), and their population ceased to exist about 300 BC, (about the time Coriantumr showed up among the people of Zarahemla). This evidence is too strong, at least for me, to ignore.

It’s not just placing the Nephites. We have a second point to place: the Jaredites. Place both of them correctly and you get an understanding of the geography of the Book of Mormon.

And probably that 10,000 is high, being a unit that is fully manned. Almost certainly the figure is lower.

I suppose there is nothing to say that Moroni didn’t also move the other plates north. After all, if it was lightly populated there, it would make more sense for him to take the plates there.

It makes me wonder what “sea north” and “sea south” it referred to. (I just realized I neglected to provide the references: Hel 11:20 and Hel 3:8)

Check out Larry Paulsen’s Book of Mormon site. It’s quite good and addresses many of these issues. I think if you look at his map you’ll see that it fits those descriptions. He doesn’t have anchors for all the sections but if you go to his notes page and search for Hel. 3: 8 you’ll find he discusses that verse with a map.

Clark,

Thanks for sharing that link. Larry Paulsen’s BOM geography work is immeasurable. He’s got some good stuff there.

Doesn’t this interpretation have as much validity as the scenarios being bandied about here?

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs2/vernP3.htm#pg6061

And for the sake of testimony, why not?

Sandy,

I’m surprised that Spalding doesn’t mention a thing about the Olmecs. You cannot do an honest research of Book of Mormon geography without taking into account the Olmecs.

http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html

I think this evidence is too strong to ignore.

Dan

But what about his thesis?

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs2/vernP3.htm#pg6061

Sandy,

His thesis does not make any attempt to refute the Olmec possibility as the Jaredites, and as thus, I can’t really take his thesis too seriously, and that’s just for me.

Dan- Let me just pause to take this in- for the first time in my bloggernacle existence I absolutely agree with you.

Sandy, as others have mentioned there is also the problem of weather and seasons. Also the distances just don’t line up well with internal descriptions. So if we take the text seriously then it just won’t work. Of course if one is a critic and suggests it is all made up then one shouldn’t expect internal consistency (even though it is there) and one can just discount it all and find things that vaguely fit.

The area dating of the findings is the most important factor then written language, buldings, ect. That is why meso-america is the best fit and excludes most all other sites. This plus the concept that Lehi family blended in with an area already populated and was absorbed into that culture answers almost all the problems and may be why we may never know for sure. As Mormons, we may be able to see how small new findings support our book but those that have know concept of what is in the Book of Mormon will never see the conection.

I want to know where the Viking DNA is in the tribes of the East Cost Indians in United States and Canada?

Further, list all the items that the BofM states, georgphy, culture, weather, archeology timing, ect., then see which area best fits. Eather all the items were never there or they were completly wiped out.

Sort of related, but It just occurred to me last night that Ether was contemporary with Mosiah 1, and not pre-Nephi. Don’t know why I didn’t realize it before. So, another requirement that needs to be added is that these two societies could coexist in the same area without knowing each other were there for over a century. That is totally amazing to me.

Matt,

how big do you think the Nephites and Lamanites were at the time of Mosiah 1?

Dunno, But I would suggest they were both fairly large, based on my reading, around the time of Enos or Omni.

King Benjamin gave his final farewell in chapters 1-6 of Mosiah. We get a bit of a sense of the size of the population from Mormon’s description of the gathering. What does it say? From it, how big would you wager the Nephites were at this time, (even after meeting with the people of Zarahemla which were larger than the Nephites).

where is the DNA for the Kennenwick Man found in the American Indian?

Solomon Spalding romance fiction lierature has never clamed to be any more than that. It is a waste of time to apply any historical facts of the americas to a declared work of fiction.

I am so grateful that I waited for that copy of Archeology Today to find out that the Bible is true and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and I need to repent and keep the commandments. Thank you Archeology Today for proving the BofM is true. I am also thankful for my subscription of DNA Uncoiled that proved me that the Israelites were really in Egypt and that Nephites and Lamanites are from the house of Israel and part of the native American gene pool. I am also thankful to god that if I could not see, hear, or speak I could still pray and know that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the son of God that the Bible is fact and BofM is fact.
From a convert: thank you Mormon missionaries.

FWIW, when I said I think the limited N. American geography makes the most sense, I wasn’t referring to New York, but the midwest.

Lawrence Poulson’s web page is impressive, but he adopts the same circular reasoning that FARMS does. E.g., in his notes, he says:

“We must, however, base our assumptions on the known data concerning the cultures of Mesoamerica, the times these cultures existed and the geographic areas they occupied.”

I think it’s possible to superimpose a geography just about anywhere in the world if you assume the geography has to be there. Others have pointed out that the Malaysian peninsula would work. There aren’t many places that wouldn’t work, if you just make enough assumptions about what the geographical references in the BoM could mean. I’ve noted before that the ancient Cambodian civilization sounds much more like BoM civilization than the Mayans do, since they had roads, chariots, written language and all the rest.

Among other problems with Mesoamerica is that the more we learn about their civilization, the less likely it is that a boatload of Israelites could have become kings, generals, judges, etc. that dominated the people there. That’s why I think FARMS has painted itself into a corner by focusing almost exclusively on Mesoamerica.

They remind me of the people who are still trying to disprove evolution–the more we learn about biology, the more evolution answers the questions.

Jonathan,

I think we’ll find, in the long run, that our current assumptions about Nephite civilization are far more presumptuous with regard to archeology than geography. IMO, it’s better to start with the best geographical match possible and then allow archeological evidence ample time to be seasoned (or not) by the interplay between authentic artifacts from the geographical area of choice and the Book of Mormon–the two shedding light on each other with respect to developing a plausible model of Nephite civilization.

Mesoamerica area works when you factor in a small group of Israelites that all members may or may not have been Jewish and that when they arrived the were absorbed into the indigenous population. That they may have been the leaders and keep a tight family group at the top and therefor did not enter mingle with the general population. Therefor not spreading there DNA around and that they were the target of being captured and killed which would cut off there DNA line. Also my understand of reading the BofM is the terms Nephites and Lamanites were group or political names rather than family lines. If in the end all they brought to the mix of people were some culture ideas and religious idesa and these were absorbed into the Mesoamerican culture then we would be lucky to find any remaing examples of middle east people. Also there is a lot of support that Japan pottery and other cultures arrived in mesoamerica and left some of their culture but did not alter the mesoamerican culture.

I like the work FARMS and others have done on the mesoamerica BofM concept and I have read some on the Malayain idea but other than the detail roads, buildings and names the idea that impressed me the most is that Lehi’s party may have stopped there for more than just provisions. They may have left behind people, written record and other culture imprints without that being the geographical location for the BofM. I am sure in my mind that north and south america is the general location and that mesoamerica is the best location specificly. However, we must remember not even Joseph Smith stated with clear statements that it was specificly where on the americas but that it was in the americas that it took place. If it is not then it would not bother me that much. The hard problem with geography is when you give written directions is that if you make one small mastake– right rather than left– can throw you way off. The BofM was written for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the most perfect book not 100% perfect. It was acknowledge to have mastakes but they were human errors and it was not written as a geography, DNA, or culture map so we could find Nephi’s farm.
Also when we are thinking out side the box we also need to becareful about taking thing literlly. The bible and BofM make statements that “all were destroyed” in a raid or war but when when such statement a found in middle eastern and Egyphtin written records they find that this is not true to the archeology records. Remember you are reading only from the view point of the author and if they are winner the may over state the outcome.

Other out side the box thinking, the Jews were allowed to take wives outside the Jewish blood line. It sounds like Lehi was a travler and may have married a woman that had two sons, Laban and Lemual that was not Jewish at all but could be African and Asian back ground. This would account for the dark skin and Asian DNA problem that concerns everyone. Then when Lehi married Sara she had Asian DNA markers which mixed with the Asian DNA markers that was already here in the Americas so little or no Jewish DNA would be found. Also the BofM goes out of its way to make the point that Nephi and Nephits were to be hunted down and kill off. Not only the blood line but the culture, religion, everything Nephit was to be distroyed by the Lamanites. So I am impressed when there is any thing even closely related to things related to Lehi or middle eastern culture.

Jonathan,

It is impossible for the Nephites to have populated the Midwest. I hope this verse from Alma 22 is a final nail in the coffin of the Great Lakes theory.

28 Now, the more aidle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.

Mormon is describing the lands of the Nephites and Lamanites here in the most general words he could possibly think of (dang it!), but he gave up one key point. Lehi first landed on the WESTERN shore. The Great Lakes theory presumes that Lehi’s party landed somewhere on the EASTERN shore, like in New Jersey or New York. But that directly contradicts this scripture.

Now, we know that the last battle, Mormon’s battle against the Lamanites where most of his men are killed happened close to the land of the first inheritance. He hid all the records of the Nephites in the Hill Cumorah in that same area, close to the land of their first inheritance, except for the record he gave to Moroni.

Now, if we keep with the Great Lakes theory (or any American theory), just where do you put Lehi’s landing on the west coast? California? And how do they travel the 3000 miles from there to the Great Lakes? Why would they when California is so cool?

No, from all the evidence I’ve seen and read, there is only one possible location for the people of Nephi, and that is in Meso-America.

Porter,

Also there is a lot of support that Japan pottery and other cultures arrived in mesoamerica and left some of their culture but did not alter the mesoamerican culture.

That’s probably the Jaredites who landed in Japan and stayed there for a while. Remember in Ether when they came to a beautiful land and lingered for a while, presumptively thinking they reached the promised land? The Lord then scolded them for not continuing further. It is my personal opinion that the Jaredites had reached Japan and thought that was the promised land. I don’t know if any of you have seen pictures of Japan, but it is a lush, beautiful land. It is understandable that they thought they had arrived. But no, their mission was not complete. They still had to travel across the Pacific.

So far I am for mesoamerica. I had not thought that the Jaredites may have landed other places before the arrived here.

As a new convert of Christianty and then Mormonism I have had to make many paraigm shifts in my religious concepts. I have concluded that although the Mormons have the fullness of the Gospel they are not any better off knowing about how the Bible and in their case the BofM fits in to earth science than the Christians. If science is to believed at all then Adam and Eve found they were not placed on a planet with no people but was put with a planet with people and their prime directives were to raise righteous families and convert everyone else. Noah and family was not caught up in a world wide flood but a localized flood and after the flood Noah’s family found they were rubing sholders with other people. Again they were to raise righteous families and convert all others that did not drown. The children of Israel were isolated for only a short time before they were infiltrated by the very Canaanites they tried to destroy along with other neighboring countries. Again they were to raise rightious families and convert all others. Christ picked the most righteous he could and commanded them to raise righteous families and convert all others. Lehi did not go into isolation: when his family arrived in the Americas, he was to raise righteous families and convert all others ( Maya or whom ever) along with Mulikites and Jaredites\Olmec and any other groups that God sent out to other places such as the Islands of the seas to find new people to convert. For me the question is how many Adams and Eves, Noahs, Lehis, Mulekites and Jaredites have there been? And if you find them how many times have their cultures been corrupted and what do they look like? My first mental picture was from paintings found in the BofM that makes Nephi look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, then from the paintings from the Jews of Christ’s time, now it is more like Apocalypto. The Jaredites\Olmecs looked Afracan\Asian\other. The Stone heads do not look like Mayans. Will the real Olmec please stand up.
Further, in hunting for the BofM people remimber that the BofM was written in code and only those that were trusted to keep the records were allowed to know the code. The common people and enemines did not know the code to avoid corruption of the scriptures. The BofM code was made to keep it from making it hard to find a Nephit.
After all this I would not be so quick to discount the Great Lakes region. Lets say archeology finds a recored there and it sounds like the BofM people but the true people of the BofM are in Mesoamerica. We know that mesoamerica had trade with North American and South America. So now we have a record that soounds like the BofM people and some of the geography fits but the record of the Great Lakes are just a transferance of the mesoamerican\BofM trade culture. To look to narrowly could still lead down a incorrect search.

porter,

After all this I would not be so quick to discount the Great Lakes region. Lets say archeology finds a recored there and it sounds like the BofM people but the true people of the BofM are in Mesoamerica. We know that mesoamerica had trade with North American and South America. So now we have a record that soounds like the BofM people and some of the geography fits but the record of the Great Lakes are just a transferance of the mesoamerican\BofM trade culture. To look to narrowly could still lead down a incorrect search.

Problem is that Mormon’s writings don’t fit the geography of the Great Lakes. Alma 22:28 should have clarified that. I’m sure there were a people who lived in the Great Lakes region about the same time as the Nephites, but they were not Nephites. The answer does not have to be complex. Sometimes we think, “nah, that’s too easy of an answer,” but remember, the Lord once gave one of his people an answer that was so easy that many did not take it. In Numbers 21, the Israelites were plagued by fiery serpents. The Lord directed Moses to create a serpent on a pole. All the Israelites had to do to live was to look. Many could not because they thought the answer was supposed to be more complicated than that!