Ward shopping
Posted on June 29th, 2006 by Bryce Inouye
So, I’m moving in a month or so. We’re going this weekend to start looking for houses. I’ve never been house hunting or ward shopping before. What should I be looking for in a ward? Should I even be trying to ward shop? What’s the proper etiquette? How do I play one ward off of another to get favorable callings? (just kidding).
I’m seriously wondering how to do this, though. My parents have advised me to contact the bishops and RS presidents in the wards in the area to get an idea of what the area is like. Any other advice?
BTW, it’s the Harrisonburg, Virginia area, in case you know anything about it.
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First advice, contact the Bishop and EQ president - say I am thinking about purchasing a house, am I in your ward. Evaluate their response on timeliness, tone and general attitude.
Second advice, get a copy of the ward leadership - or ask about it. Check the last names. Its generally a bad thing if the bishop and the RS president or YW pres have the same last name, same with the counselors and Quorum leaders. Either the ward is cliquish or short on talent. I would avoid the first more than the second, but its definately a caveat.
Third, go to Church. Wander the halls for a minute, see if anyone says hello. Sit down in the chapel, in a convenient place. Back row, near the door etc. Any place that would be easy for someone to approach you. See if anyone directs you as to where to go for SS. Notice the aaronic priesthood as they pass the sacrament, evaluate clothing, manner and number.
Fourth, when in SS, see the level of involvement. See the reaction to any ultraconservative/ultra liberal comments. Make one yourself, see the reaction. (Repeat in Priesthood).
I was actually working on my own “checklist” for this, as I’m starting to look at upgrading my house size. You might not be able to find out all of this, but if you can:
- Average Sunday attendance (raw and as a function of what percentage attend)
- Number of the youth who attend
- If you have scouting-age children, check out the general efficacy of the troop or pack (Eagle Scouts and DTG recipients)
- Check out the YW program and the number of award recipients
- How often do they have ward activities?
- How long has the bishop and his counselors been in place? [If it’s close to 5 years for the bishop, he may be getting replaced soon, which could change everything, both positively and negatively.]
- HT and VT
- I echo Jay’s comment about checking out which leaders are married to which leaders
- Not to be elitist, but look at the cars in the parking lot. Is the “most expensive” car a beat-down minivan? (Wards where 30% of the ward is on welfare can be a problem.)
- How many of the stake officers (prexy, auxiliary leaders, high council) come from this ward?
- General political makeup of the ward
- How many wards attend the building
- Do all of the wards share the same youth night, or do they have separate nights
I could go on for awhile…
Without really intending to, we “ward shopped” when we moved here last September. We were staying in an apartment until we sold our old house and could afford to buy in our new area. I called the mission home, told them where we were, and asked which unit we lived in. The brother who answered the phone (presumably the male half of a senior couple) told me which we were in, and gave me the address and times.
It turns out we don’t really live in that unit, but, if we had done our shopping, we would probably be here.
There are only two things I would care about:
(1) sufficient numbers of children the age of my own children
(2) a ward without a high turnover rate, because I hate it when my friends move away
Bryce, I would agree with most of the comments above, except that if I had “ward shopped” I never would have ended up in my current ward, which is deficient in nearly every category. Primary is small, priesthood is miniscule, ward leadership is overworked, people move too much and turnover is huge, etc. But there is an incredible need for active people who are willing to work on their callings, and you can always learn a lot in a ward like that. So, you may get the perfect ward with a wonderful primary and a lot of priesthood, an organized bishopric, etc, but that may not give you the kind of experience you could get if you were in a highly imperfect ward like mine. After three years in my current ward, I would be hard-pressed to say the experience of being in an imperfect ward has been bad. Instead, I would say it has been challenging and I learned more than I would have in a better ward. So, you may just want to take whatever ward you get and work with it.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with ward shopping, but I suspect there are some things you will never learn about a ward until you have moved into it and attended for a period of months. I wonder if there is a single factor or a couple of factors that could be really decisive or indicative of the quality of a ward … if I come up with any possibilities I’ll come back and comment on it.
we’ve lived the last year in a completely discouraging ward situation and so for the first time did true “ward shopping” as we left it, so that we don’t repeat the circumstance. I think we went to about 8 area wards before finding a favorite, and then it took 2 months of attending it while we found a place to live within the boundries. we move Saturday.
what to look for:
do they notice that we’re new? how many people greet us? how positively are we received when we tell the Bishop or RS that we may be moving in? does anyone offer to show us around?
are there many kids the age of our kids? are there enough parents about our own age?
Is there any racial or economic diversity?
I check the bulitan and anouncements to see quantity and type of activities going on.
But wheight goes most heavily towards general tone… spirit-ful-ness, warmness, lots of participation (both comments and loud singing), lively discussion, or talented teachers.
Just trust your instincts.
People always try to talk themselves out of their initial gut reactions.
“Oh I’m just jumping to conclusions”
“That’s so judgemental of me”
“I’m not giving him a fair chance”
Then they go with their reasoning, instead of their instincts and typically find out that their initial feeling was correct after all. You can actually feel people out really well, if you’re willing to get rid of all this “Enlightenment” baggage we carry around.
This is your ward. You don’t have to be “fair-minded.”
As I say this, a part of me is saying:
“Ward shopping?! Outrageous! Moral weakness! Stepping on tradition!”
But the rest of me is thinking my time concern would be better directed toward the fact that I missed scripture study and personal prayer this morning. And I still have some home teaching to get done …
I say go for it.
We weren’t really ward shopping when we attended the ward we thought we were going to be in. After Sacrament meeting a bishop’s counselor took us into a room, went down the checklist: mission — yes, temple marriage — yes, etc, etc. “Well, we have a few callings that are open at this point… Elder’s quorum counselor, Sunday School president, Young Women’s president, Young Men’s president, etc, etc.”
The reason we don’t live in that ward is because it’s too far away from Manhattan… I promise.
As I see it, there are two kinds of struggling wards, those that are going to punish you for moving in, and those that couldn’t be more excited. Avoiding the latter is probably immoral, avoiding the former is probably reasonably justified. It is the leadership’s responsibility to shape the character the ward for good, and if a ward is uniquely unwelcoming, it is probably their fault, in one way or another.
*Advice- Try really really hard to use the ‘Kevin Bacon 6 Degrees of Seperation Game’ (contact someone who might know someone who might know someone in that ward). Betcha you won’t have to use 6 degrees to do it!
Also- ask about ward boundries. Then go online (map it, go to realtors sites, city profiles, etc.) You might be looking at a ward with all the college families in town, mostly apartments, mostly ‘burbs, lake homes, or if you’re in a rural ward- needing to travel to do VT, HT, etc. I’ve found it enriching to stretch myself and go places where I haven’t been before. One of my favorite wards was a rural ward comprised mostly of elderly midwestern ranchers.
Sometimes we coast, sometimes we struggle, sometimes it’s the Ward, sometimes it’s us. I guess it depends on where you’re at!
Queuno,
What type of trouble does one get into in a low income ward? Thoughts? I was thinking that on one hand- it might mean that self-reliancy isn’t being taught and provident-living and educational programs aren’t available.
On the other hand, it might show a really keen and aware leadership which is in tune with the oftentimes unspoken needs of the ward and doesn’t try to follow that terrible myth and ‘impress SLC’ with welfare savings (one of my pet peeves). One might be wary of abnormally low welfare rates in an average ward- as it might be a sign of thriftiness gone amok or an ineffective leadership.
Frankly, my husband and I are looking to roll up our sleeves and be part of a ward with needs, as we realize that we are blessed and thus have an obligation to work and share. We see this as an important element in raising children w/ our values and who won’t grow up to be little hellians b/c they’ve always had everything and haven’t learned about others. We hope to see opportunity for service and friendship among the salt of the earth. (Of course, life ebbs and flows and there are times for this philanthropy and times when we’ve needed to be replenished spiritually ourselves. Sounds like a time for prayer.)
Also, I’ve been abslutely disgusted living in a ward filled with BMW’s and Benz’s. (We were bone poor and abject misfits). This ward’s roster was internationally recognizable and security guards attended meetings with several of the families. Children arrived to their catered baptisms in limos, and ‘congratulations’ cards from primary teachers were expected to be stuffed with CDs (and not the musical kind). I found that that type of money was an omnipresent element which oftentimes mucked things up. Brigham said that although the saints could storm persecution, drought, etc., he was sure the saints could not handle wealth. It has the CAPABILITY - the HEIGHTENED CHANCE- of creating major problems, especially if it becomes a detracting focus. (For references, see open the BoM to any page-point and read.) I’m NOT saying this is the case everywhere or with everyone- I’m just saying that there are many different types of wards and many different types of problems. Rich, poor and middle class wards all experience problems when wealth (or lack of wealth) becomes the primary focus instead of the first 2 great commandments: love the Lord and love your neighbor.
To Julie’s point about high turnover — look also at the growth in the area. There are parts here in TGSOT that are exploding with growth — and we get ward splits every couple of years (and so you don’t see your friends at Church anymore, and you don’t get as much chance to see them during the week).
I don’t think you should ever move into a ward *because* of the leadership, but it’s perfectly legitimate to NOT move into a ward because of the leadership. [Similar analogy to taking a job or not, because of the boss.]
Queuno,
Agreed! Poor leadership is perhaps one of the most difficlt trials for ward members! I cringe at the thought of so much being in the hands of an uninspired leader.
Question:
Is it true that the church is now releasing Bishops after 8-9 years of service instead of 5 to lower the leadership turnover and focus more on retaining trained leaders?
How long does a bishop last? In my area, we have a habit of 5 years (almost to the dot), and see psychological burnout at about that time (but it might just be that we are conditioned that way.)
Seriously, how long do they last? Stake Presidents?
Another question: Any bishops out there (or leaders) that have purposefully moved to get out of a calling?
How about finding out about a ward by right off the bat by: sitting in a front center row; wear a suit jacket; carry your scriptures and lesson materials; arrive at the recommended 10 minutes prior to the start of the meeting; prior to the meeting offer to pass the Sacrament with the Deacons - at least help them fill cups and put out trays; ask to lead the prayer in SSchool or Priesthood; be prepared for the breakout groups by pre-reading and studying out the lessons - then participate.
Don’t lead yourself into temptation by putting yourself in a position where you may become the over analyzing, possibly judgemental person in the back. To find the purest response, you’ll need to step out, participate and be pro-active. I dare you!
T.O.
I think I recommended something similar. My back row recomendation was not way back in the cultural hall, but the last row in the section, or the row just before the cultural hall. This makes it easy for people to approach you. I think you need to have an open mind, but the ward you live in plays a major role in your life.
In my previous ward we were readily accepted, given callings shortly (Eq counselor for me). In my current ward, they have been nice, but haven’t included us as readily. The ward is cliquey. The same 6=10 women rotate into the the high profile callings in YW and primary presidencies. All the younger women (except my wife) are in these callings, we are put in a marginalized calling. etc. I don’t need to go into it all, and we haven’t been totally miserable, but it has been hard. To the point where it is difficult for us to want to be as involved as we could be.
Whew - at least this thread isn’t about the other kind of ward shopping. (Something I have to deal with a little bit too much as stake membership clerk.)
I’m in a ward now that has a few couples where both hold major callings. Here that has more to do with the talent pool not being very deep (we’re smallest ward in the stake, most of the high priests are north of 60) than anything else.
The other thing to look out for with a leadership list is where the leaders live. (And if you can, track down an older list to see if the pattern changes at all over time.) In my ward, the bishopric has almost always come from one corner, etc. This has not been good for the ward IMHO as other corners (like the one I lived in for three and a half years until last week) get ignored or the one active family gets asked to give everyone else a ride.
You can always go to the Meetinghouse Locator on lds.org, punch in an address (in North America) and it will return a ward. This is the ward in whose boundaries the address falls, assuming the stake has double-checked the map Salt Lake sent them. (It was fun cleaning that up a few years ago here.) Also, if the stake has a website (most do in North America, but not all) there will be a link to it, and you can poke around a little and use the stake’s (and the various wards’) sites to get a better feel for things.
I think ward shopping falls under the “study it out” command given Oliver. But after making your decision, it would be good to take it to the Lord.
I’ve had two disastrous moves in my life when I moved to where I wanted to be instead of where the Lord wanted me to be.
It is said “It doesn’t matter where you serve, it’s how.”
I disagree with that. If the Lord wants you in a certain ward or place, then it DOES matter where you serve.
Whether it’s for our own benefit, our family’s benefit, or the benefit of someone else with whom we will have contact, it is important to be in the right place at the right time.
You, as a HT-er, VT-er, leader, teacher, etc., might have the right combination of personality and talents that is needed by someone in a particular place and time. And there might be someone in that ward with the talents that you need.
The Lord’s influence often directs us without us knowing about it, either through our unconcious choices, those of others, or just plain circumstances. But sometimes he wants or needs our help and active participation to get us to the right place at the right time.
How many wards can Harrisonburg, VA have? What is that James Madison? I attended a branch in Covington, VA (Buena Vista Stake) a few times while traveling. It was just shy of a snake handling church. Don’t wander too far from the I-81 corridor towards the mountains, or you’ll run into moon shiners. At least that’s what folks in Blacksburg (Virginia Tech) say. Although I’ve played golf, etc in Bath County plenty of times (The Homestead), and never saw any hillbillies or moon shiners.
I’d pick your schools, house and neighborhood first and worry about the church last. Real estate is location, location, location. The odds are, if you have good schools in a safe neighborhood, everything else will fall into place. If you pick a ward first, you’re taking a chance on far more important stuff. Moreover, ward and stake boundaries and leadership thereof can change at the drop of a hat. It’s kind of like you should never take a job based solely on who your boss will be.
J.A.T.,
In our area (Salt Lake Valley), Bishops are still released at 5 years and SP’s at 9.
While “welfare wards” can sometimes be a problem, most of the time they seem to offer a unique chance to serve others. Our ward is proud of the way we take care of each other.
By the way, if you want to move to our ward, we would love to have you and we could really use the help. You will not find BMWs or Benzes or limos in our parking lot, but you will find an extremely accepting ward that is excited when new people move in.
Suffering and poverty doesn’t make a ward somehow “more moral.”
Seth,
True. No arguments from me. Thanks for clearing that up. My point was that too much of a focus on money (either not having it OR being obsessed with being/staying rich) is a problem. Both the rich and the poor can be trapped in setting their hearts on material things and it can seriously stunt spiritual growth. Although I wonder if there isn’t a little more leniancy in the royal courts for those who are on the bottom rung of Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs as opposed to the bazillionaires out there. You are right though, tax brackets are not golden tickets to the celestial kingdom.
Capt. Obsidian,
Thanks for the compliment! We’ve been sitting on our hands for 5 years now- no callings, no V.T.ers, etc. etc. etc. I’m begining to think this ward isn’t a good fit for us. Perhaps we should move to Obsidianland! Thanks for the thoughtfulness!
I see ward shopping as a character flaw, with no offense intended. I’ve written about this, but I spent too much time in my law school branch hoping that someone would move in, only to see the suburban ward bulge with active priesthood. Why? Because they recruited, and the members who did show up to check us out decided that our little branch was going too much work and that law school or med school or business school was “their time for their family.”
My advice is to either make the right housing choice without regard to the church unit, and then serve where the Lord sees fit, or find where you can be the most help. Many of the comments above are all about what the ward can do for you, and not the other way around, which really makes me sad.
That should read “…was going to be too much work…”
I understand why you’d feel that way Jim Bob. But I think it fair to wonder about the issues in a ward. The problem is that if one is going to “server where the Lord sees fit” one has to know what exactly it is he sees you doing. And if we take no thought but to ask then I don’t think we should expect much by way of answer. That is we have to do our research.
The problem is that if we don’t look at ward when choosing where to live we’re really just playing a game of craps which isn’t letting the Lord do as he sees fit.
A specific example where ward shopping yields a poor chioce: there’s a stake in southern Indiana I know of where two units share a building. One ward with an outstanding school district sucks (sorry, but it does). The great ward has a sucky school district. Only renters or morons would pick the great ward whether they had kids or not.
I agree with jimbob. It’s easy to look at this from the wrong perspective. It’s not about what you want, its about where the Lord wants you and where you can make the most difference to others. Living in England, we pray for bright young people to move in to help us out. One committed family can make an amazing difference. Almost all of our wards struggle. We have a military base on the edge of our stake and for many years our small, struggling branch routinely had people living within it’s boundaries who went to the big flourishing ward over the border in the next stake. We never made a fuss about enforcing the boundaries. We would invite them once but if they made a decision to get lost in the large US-filled ward rather than get stuck in our little branch, we were probably better off without them.
About bishops serving 5 years -I was at a training meeting recently and we were told that President Hinckley had recently asked the brethen “where have people got the idea that bishops only serve for 5 years?” There is nothing in the handbook about recommended time periods. Certainly every time I’ve been released from any calling I’ve felt I was just getting to grips with it. One thing I can confirm though is that when the Lord wants to change a bishop, he’s very definite about it. I have seen bishops released after 18 months and seen them serve more than 5 years. In my experience the Lord sort of taps the SP on the shoulder and says “now’s the time”. When you’re going through the process of “studying it out in your mind” length of service is a factor but when the Lord wants a change, He wants a change -period.
Or homeschoolers Steve EM.
Ahhh … Freedom sure feels nice.
Strange, that nobody mentioned one of the hazards of ward-shopping: ward boundaries are subject to change. I heard about families who lived in five different wards over the years, even though they occupied the same house.
I highly recommend ward shopping. If I had the foresight to do so, I wouldn’t have ended up in this ward. Cliquish, provincial, un-valiant. We moved here from Philly, but because I went to BYU, we’ve been classed as “Utah Mormonsâ€. Which means that much of the ward wants nothing to do with us.
When a letter from the First Presidency is read in Sacrament Meeting, someone always says, “That’s for the people in Utah.†They pick and choose what programs and guidelines to follow by using that line.
They want to sit back and let someone else run the church. As a result, the STOP committee runs things (Same Ten Old People).
When I was bish, I did my best to bring the members to a higher level. The SP couldn’t believe that the ward was a screwed up as I described it. That is until a returning mission president was “called†to live in our ward and was called as bishop (not replacing me, but my successor). He told the SP that it’s even worse than I described it. My successor did a great job of helping the ward revert to its old ways. Unrighteous dominion is alive and well in the church.
But then again, you might want to live in such a ward. You might be able to help these people get ready to meet the Savior when he comes. Or perhaps like the Children of Israel, the older generation needs to die off before they can enter the Promised Land.
Didn’t someone say that Wards tend to, on average, completely metamorph withing about 7 years?
So if you’re planning on living somewhere longer than that, you risk the ward changing anyway.
But then again, people rarely buy houses to actually stay in them anymore. It’s more of a financical investment were folks play off supposedly hot housing markets. Move in, wait a few years for a good market, sell at a profit, and upgrade to some other mortgage you can’t afford in some other neighborhood that is too expensive for you.
Seth, I was thinking even the home schoolers would want good public schools to help maintain and enhance thier property values, but I get your point. Also, while home schooling grade school age kids is somewhat common, how many people home school through high school? No need to respond.
If you’re planning on actually living in the house, who cares what the property value is?
I think that’s nice in theory, Clark, but in practice, the purpose of ward shopping is to find the ward where you’re least likely to have a “big” calling or a ward with a nice primary or YM or YW program, etc. People ward shop not so they can find where they’re most needed, but to find where they can get the most out of their wards without having to put much in. It’s almost never the other way around.
During E. Maxwell’s remission a few years back he told our stake that the church needs less high need/low utility members and more high utility/low need members. To me, ward shopping is all about figuring out a unit where you can be the former, or least be a low need/low utility member. And that bothers me to no end.
Here’s another question about ward shopping. (Former or current bishops and leaders please help.) Does it stigmatize a person to be seen ward shopping and asking questions?
J.A.T.
Depends on the ward members, of course. There’s really no way to predict that.
Jim Bob, I disagree strongly. I think most people ward shop to ensure they have an adequate social experience.
Can I confess right up front that had I know our current ward was so transitory with the associated problems in the ward I would not have bought my current home?
So to me I wish I’d done ward shopping.
Clark,
I don’t know what “adequate social experience” means. Is that similar to hoping there are people who look and talk like you?
This quote is my exact problem with ward shopping. Instead of focusing on the fact that a transitory ward could use someone stable like yourself to help others, you’re (apparently) concerned that the ward is not giving you what you need. That’s the exact problem I was describing above.
I think you’re proving my point, frankly.
I’ve never ward shopped at all; whenever I’ve moved, my focus was on finding the right housing/school situation. I’ve just let the chips fall where they may ward-wise, and I’ve never been disappointed. I have no objection at all to people ward shopping, but I still don’t think I would bother. Unless you actually live in an area in an apartment for a period of months, it would probably be difficult to really grasp whether a ward is a good fit or not.
My wife and I have lived in our house for 9+ years, in 6 ward boundaries. It has progressively gotten “better” as most of the deadwood has been split off into other wards.
I made a comment earlier about the fiscal situation in the ward — I wasn’t advocating moving to a wealthy ward per se, but just note that if you move into a ward with 50% unemployment, there will be considerable problems. I did a lengthy stint as a welfare and employment specialist and it was a very rewarding calling — and extremely exhausting. People who are unemployed and worried about money cannot serve to the highest level of effectiveness — their financial status is a big distraction. It’s horrible to think about how youth get cheated because their advisors are too busy fighting depression/panic/temporal needs to mentor them — but it happens. Bishops aren’t as effective when they are unemployed.
Maybe you want the challenge. That’s fine. But you should at least *ask* the question. The Lord will call us where he wants us — he will guide us into the proper ward situation. But, if you are praying to receive inspiration, you owe it to yourself to pray about it with wide-open eyes.
I could be wrong here, but what you want to do is to move into a ward, of the ones you are looking into, with a Bishop that has the longest tenure currently so that you have the greatest chance of being considered as the next Bishop since you are faithful, you don’t have any ties to the ward emotionally, and no current enemies which all make for great ‘Who will be the next Bishop?’ gossip and heresay! There is, afterall, a reason for moving to the ward you’ll be living in, why not make it for the purpose of being ‘Top Dawg!’…I followed these steps and have been YM’s president, 2nd Counsellor in the ‘next B/Ric’, and now a HCer — it’s been nothing but a complete farce — wish I would have stayed where we lived prior to current circumstances!!!!
Anyone who actually wants the job of bishop is certifiable.
yes, Seth (#45), you are correct, certifiable foresure…anyone who would seek to be a Bishop has some serious ‘delusions of grandeur’!
JimBob (#41) basically all you are saying is that we can never look to our needs, only our service. I simply disagree with that view of life. I think our ability to service is tied up with looking after our needs. One can’t privilege one too much above the other or else ironically we will fail.
I guess there is probably a happy medium, Clark, but I keep thinking (and my past experience has tainted me) that there are too many members thinking only about what the ward can do for them. And that tends to lead to some units having really strong programs because everyone flocks there, while others struggle, because people start migrating away. I just don’t how we you build Zion if our good people are content to go where the work is easiest (which is not necessarily what you’re describing, I know).
Are many of you posting from the West? Here in the East boundaries don’t change much. Maybe I am coming from a different perspective. We are trying to decide on a job change/move. We want to stay in the northeast (though many of you Utahns are fleeing back west, much to our dismay - we need you!). I have to admit to ward shopping, but not because I want to shirk responsibility. We both serve a lot, but we love it. I cannot fathom being in a ward where one doesn’t have a calling. It just doesn’t happen out here. Our ward shopping is solely because we want our young children to have friends their age who are members. We don’t need a battalion of 5 year-olds, but a few would be nice for them. I don’t think that is unrighteous. I don’t think the Lord begrudges us for wanting support for our kids. They have lots of non-member friends, and that is great. We love the exposure they get. We are also having to constantly explain away words we do not use, things we don’t do, turning down Sunday parties, etc. and it is hard on them. Are you telling me that this is selfish? If it is, then so be it.
Colorado.